#2203383 - 05/15/08 07:22 AM
Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
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Supper
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 77
Loc: SE Wyoming
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After a discussion with my gunsmith last night, he suggested that I steer clear of the MRC. He stated that "It is nothing like a Pre-64 and none of the people that I've built one for have liked it." Now, to be honest, I don't have a clue how many he has handled.
He is pushing the Lawton 7000 action, but I already have several other M700 variants and am looking to go CRF rather then push feed.
I've looked at the MRC actions and the Satterlee (heart attack when looking at prices, my god), but haven't really seen any others that strike my fancy. I guess I could start scouring the adds and pawn shops for a Winny Classic, but would like to go custom action. Have also done searches on here, but my google-fu must be weak since most of what I find isn't even related to what I'm looking for.
The goal of this gun is to build a 7WSM mountain rifle nestled in a McM Tikka 65 stock. I know I could go buy a Kimber Montana and have a light weight CRF action, but the stock doesn't really suit me well.
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#2203645 - 05/15/08 09:43 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Supper]
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Lansend
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Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 141
Loc: Southwest Ohio
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Over the last 2 or 3 years I've been able to buy several modified pre 64s just for the actions. Least expensive were $600 and $700. But the cost to bring them back can be significant. Maybe not as much as an action from Stuart Satterlee or Empire Mauser, but way more than an MRC 1999.
The most cost effective way to go might be to get a Zastava/Remington 798 action- about $500, I think, but I'd want an M70 style safety added.
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#2203723 - 05/15/08 10:07 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Supper]
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Savage_99
Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 09/01/03
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Here is a link to the Lawton 7000 action.
What weight rifle and barrel length do you want?
For myself I find the Kimber WSM to fit just right. What aspect of it does not fit you?
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#2203732 - 05/15/08 10:10 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Lansend]
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thismortalcoil
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 1603
Loc: Mid-Mich (back in the States)
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You are going to have a tough time with a custom crf for that round, MRC is really the only one, will Stu do one in a short mag? best bet is a Winchester classic, they turn into fine customs, take a look at Echols, he uses them. Good luck.
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#2203782 - 05/15/08 10:35 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Savage_99]
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Supper
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 77
Loc: SE Wyoming
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I looked at the Lawton for a while for my last build, but went with a Stiller Predator.
What weight rifle and barrel length do you want? 
For myself I find the Kimber WSM to fit just right. What aspect of it does not fit you?
I'll look into the Classics for a WSM build as well.
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#2203807 - 05/15/08 10:48 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Supper]
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TC1
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Registered: 08/28/02
Posts: 1753
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Supper, I agree on the Montana. The stock just doesn't fit me either. A well messaged M70 Classic action would be my pick if a WSM was the round of choice.
Terry
_________________________
"I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability"
Ron (tatar salad) White
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#2203917 - 05/15/08 11:58 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Supper]
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Savage_99
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Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 7514
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Have you handled and perhaps shot a Montana WSM? Check that the comb is very high. Shouldered with no scope one is looking down at the barrel and its not your usual obsolete combo iron and stretch your neck pre war Euro stock.
Its a modern American Classic design with the low recoil design.
Shoot one and you may find, as I do, the state of the art.
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#2203945 - 05/15/08 12:20 PM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Savage_99]
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TC1
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 08/28/02
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Have you handled and perhaps shot a Montana WSM? Check that the comb is very high. Shouldered with no scope one is looking down at the barrel and its not your usual obsolete combo iron and stretch your neck pre war Euro stock.
Its a modern American Classic design with the low recoil design.
Shoot one and you may find, as I do, the state of the art.
try harder. that was lame.
_________________________
"I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability"
Ron (tatar salad) White
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#2204196 - 05/15/08 02:09 PM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: TC1]
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Oregon45
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 2489
Loc: Salem, OR
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I have several pre-64 actions but I picked up a Kimber Montana in 308 the other day (just drooling in the store) and it would be very, very hard to beat the weight and balance of that gun. I agree that the stock isn't the best design, but for $1000 that's as light as a rifle will come. Well balanced too.
To me, a pre-64 action ought to be used for a rust- blued, walnut stocked open sighted gun. If I'm putting on a fiberglass stock and a scope, I might as well use the MRC action, which is a modern classic. The MRC's I have seen all benefitted from careful stoning and polishing, but after they had been they were very, very smooth.
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#2204309 - 05/15/08 02:56 PM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Oregon45]
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TC1
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Registered: 08/28/02
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I wouldn't use a pre-64 M70 for anything WSM, but a M70 Classic I would cut up and I'd never look back. Might even look for a SS model too. The poster sounded like he really wanted to try that McMillan Tikka stock and after all, this is the custom rifle forum. I'm not knocking the Montana except to say the stock doesn't fit me. That in itself is a deal breaker for me.
Savage's lame comment was just a dig at me. I called him a retard a few weeks ago on a thread about a "Euro stock" and he still has his panties in a knot over it. I feel honored to have my own personal troll though. HA!
Terry
_________________________
"I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability"
Ron (tatar salad) White
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#2204888 - 05/15/08 08:35 PM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: TC1]
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BigUglyMan
Campfire Regular
Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 1014
Loc: Inuvik, Northwest Territories
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If you want a Mauser style, why not a CZ?
_________________________
"This duty fell upon me and was the worst job I ever had in my life.
I have known men I would rather shoot than the worst of dogs."
Frank Wild
Second in Command
Endurance 1914-1916
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#2205115 - 05/16/08 04:09 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: rgrx1276]
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TC1
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Registered: 08/28/02
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CZ doesn't make an action that will work with a WSM cartridge.
Terry
_________________________
"I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability"
Ron (tatar salad) White
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#2205221 - 05/16/08 05:49 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Supper]
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Redneck
Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 8635
Loc: TAXHELLWI. USA
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Personally, I'd go with the M70 classic. Those chambered in WSMs abound on Gunbroker; many can't even get a bid. You should be able to pick up a new or LNIB M70 classic in a WSM chambering for $550-650, especially clad in the factory plastic stock which you'll toss anyway... Since it's already set up for the fat rounds it's a piece 'o cake to convert to a full custom..
_________________________
Target moving date to Belle Fourche, South Dakota: May 1st, 2010, then I'm OUTTA TAX HELL WISCONSIN! NRA Endowment member Ex - USN(SS) (USS Razorback) '66-'69. 
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#2205223 - 05/16/08 05:50 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Supper]
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HunterJim
Campfire Guide
Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 4678
Loc: San Diego, CA, USA
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The goal of this gun is to build a 7WSM mountain rifle nestled in a McM Tikka 65 stock. I know I could go buy a Kimber Montana and have a light weight CRF action, but the stock doesn't really suit me well.
I would be looking for a Winchester chambered in one of the WSM cartridges, probably a .300 based on sheer numbers. You have a running start on the magazine and feeding with that choice.
CZ-USA's .300 WSM rifle was built on the M99 action, but they discontinued it PDQ. I don't know how many are out there, I think not so many.
My choice for a mountain rifle is my NULA, and I don't worry about the feed mechanism. 
jim
_________________________
LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.)
"If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
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#2205250 - 05/16/08 06:09 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: HunterJim]
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Savage_99
Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 7514
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I have a circa 2002 M70 SS Classic in 7mm WSM. Its chamber is out of round quite a bit. I tried to send it back to Winchester and in fact the rifle was in their smiths facility for half a year but in the end they refused to fix the out of round chamber as it was safe and it functioned as it was, so they said.
I kept the rifle as its very accurate. Now it has a Bansner stock on it and I tuned the trigger and safety as well.
A post was made on why so many M70 WSM chambers are out of round. It's due to a cut they made on the tops of the action threads and then when the barrel is over tightened the chamber goes out of round.
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#2205328 - 05/16/08 06:54 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Savage_99]
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Jkob
Campfire Regular
Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 759
Loc: minnesota
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..."A post was made on why so many M70 WSM chambers are out of round. It's due to a cut they made on the tops of the action threads and then when the barrel is over tightened the chamber goes out of round. "
What the hell is that all about? A cut on the top of the threads?
_________________________
Custom gunbuilder, metalsmith and wood, girl watcher, dove shooter and all-around good guy
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#2205531 - 05/16/08 08:48 AM
Re: Need suggestions on pre-64/mauser style actions.
[Re: Jkob]
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Savage_99
Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 09/01/03
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They cut the minor diameter of the action threads in a partial manner.
Link to out of round M70 WSM chambers by Bill Leeper
"The actual problem with this particular M70 barrel had nothing to do with any superficial similarity to a beagle's hind leg. No, in this particular example the chamber was oval. Looked at from the rear the chamber was larger by about .0025" horizontally than it was vertically. This was actually no problem when firing factory loads but was certainly a problem to the owner when he tried to reload the oval brass. Full length sizing would not quite restore the brass to factory dimensions.
I removed the barrel and set it up in the lathe to (a) measure and (b)correct the defect. Removing the barrel was a bit of a challenge in that it was very tight. Strangely, when I got it set up in the lathe the dial indicator only showed about a .001" differential in the two measurements. Odd. Nonetheless I went ahead and set the barrel back and rechambered. It just barely cleaned up all around but looked good. The indicator showed .0005 total runout so everything seemed fine. I had set the barrel back 2 turns removing exactly .123 from the shoulder to do this. I had also faced .002 off the front of the receiver giving me a .125 total. This meant the barrel was torqued up just as tightly as the factory fit. Pretty damn tight (advanced tech term). I tried a factory case in the chamber and it went just fine. I tried a sized case oriented so that the wide spot was horizontal and it went fine. Oriented the same case vertically and.. It wouldn't go! "What the heck gives", I said cheerfully. I retrieved the piece of brass from where I'd thrown it and look at it. No question, it was dragging on the high spots.
I pulled the barrel off and stuck it in the vice to recheck the thing and the brass dropped right in! It not only dropped in but could be spun 360 degrees with no problem. Suddenly the problem became clear and even made sense once I thought of the contributing factors.
First; The WSM is a fat cartridge. New brass measures right at .550" at the solid head. The rifle chamber measures .555" at the rear. ( I could equate it's shape to that of the somewhat rotund Beagle Bailley but she's already bummed out over her crooked hind legs!)
2nd; The winchester has a threaded tenon which is nominally 1 inch in diameter. The minor diameter of the threads is, at the most, about .935. In the case of this particular rifle the major diameter was only .990 and the minor diameter was .920". So the thickness over the chamber at the threaded portion of the barrel is only about .185"
3rd; Anyone who has looked inside a post 64 receiver has probably noticed the threads are not continuous around the receiver ring. Instead, they are very nearly removed by the cutting of the locking lug raceways. This means that the threads are unsupported at 3 and 9 o'clock for about .8" total (about 26% of the circumference of the thread).
So, when the barrel is torqued up there is a significant lateral load put on the 60 degree threads and the barrel is compressed and distorted top and bottom. The unsupported sides bulge outward.
The cure? Two that I can think of. First would be too simply not torque the barrel up too tight. Second is to finsh ream with the action in place so that the distortion has already occurred (my answer in this case was a combination of the two. I relieved the barrel shoulder an additional .002 then reamed by hand after it was screwed together). The real answer is to enlarge the receiver threads to Remington size (1.062) and rebarrel. Even better would be to also change the thread form to an Acme. I personally think Winchester should address this as it's a serious design flaw IMO. I know of a bunch of guys who have similar problems with out of round chambers on WSMs and would be willing to bet the root of their problems may be the same as this one. Regards, Bill.
Posts: 1925 | Location: Elko, B.C. Canada | Registered: 19 June 2000"
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