24hourcampfire: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig

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#2253251 - 06/12/08 05:28 PM

Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig

BigUglyMan
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Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 939
Loc: Inuvik, Northwest Territories

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What do you think? I'm looking at a Mark 4 LR/T 3.5-10 FFP for a thousand bucks and wondering if it would better to go with a FFP or Rear Plane reticle. What do you guys prefer? And I wonder if I'd prefer a 4.5-14x for my 300 (or even a 6.5-20x).

The rifle is going to be a stout rig, an M70 with a 28" heavy barrel so it will be a dedicated LR rig. I can't wait to get my hands on it (should be soon - all that's left is the Cerakote) and wring it out.

Thoughts?

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"This duty fell upon me and was the worst job I ever had in my life.
I have known men I would rather shoot than the worst of dogs."

Frank Wild
Second in Command
Endurance 1914-1916

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#2253345 - 06/12/08 06:19 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: BigUglyMan]

JonA
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Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1345
Loc: Everett, WA

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I greatly prefer FFP, but mostly for scopes higher than 10X. For scopes 10X or less it isn’t quite as big a deal as pretty much any time you want to use the reticle for something you’ll be able to dial it up to 10X. For higher powered scopes, there’s often too much mirage, not enough light, or you want a larger FOV to find something quickly, etc, which prevents cranking it all the way up. That can make for a hassle if you like to use the reticle to hold for wind, etc. With FFP you can crank the power ring until it looks good or for whatever conditions you expect without even paying attention to what number it lands on and fire away knowing your wind holds (or hold over/unders for fast shooting) will be right on.

If it’s going to be a dedicated LR rig and you won’t be carrying it around the woods, you might consider the 6.5-20X instead if stuck on Leupold, it’s available both ways. If they were smart they’d do FFP for their 4.5-14 as that’s the one everybody wanted them to do it in in the first place, but for now it’s only a choice for if you decide to stick with SFP. I suppose if they were smart they’d make clicks that match the reticle too…. $;\)$ Anyway, hope that helps.

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The Best of All Seasons, Fifty Years as a Montana Hunter
My 300 RUM

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#2253430 - 06/12/08 07:04 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: JonA]

BigUglyMan
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Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 939
Loc: Inuvik, Northwest Territories

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Well my dillemma of whether to buy the scope or not is dealt with. It's an M3 so I passed.

The hunt continues...

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#2261407 - 06/17/08 08:07 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: BigUglyMan]

BigUglyMan
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Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 939
Loc: Inuvik, Northwest Territories

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Well I decided to go Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x LR/T M1 with the TMR reticle.

Scope should be at the gunplumber today...I can't wait to get to building a load for it!!!

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#2272984 - 06/24/08 03:06 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: BigUglyMan]

xphunter
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Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Wyoming

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I have a Leupy Mark 4 FFP in 6.5-20 with Holland's ART reticle coming this week.
I have been borrowing a S&B 5.5-25 FFP which is outstanding with Holland's ART. Couple of months ago shot a tactical match only using the reticle (300-800 yards) and it worked great.

_________________________
Ernie

"If you think you are perfect, just try walking on water."

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#2273392 - 06/24/08 07:25 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: xphunter]

jwp475
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Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 5379
Loc: USA

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I have a S&B 5X25 PMll with the Gen ll XR reticule and when I turn the power all the way down I find it difficult to see the reticule because it is so fine.

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#2273576 - 06/24/08 09:17 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: jwp475]

JonA
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Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1345
Loc: Everett, WA

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Yeah, the standard Gen II is better for low power; the XR is one of the finest FFP reticles you'll find. That's what people wanted for the extreme range.

_________________________
The Best of All Seasons, Fifty Years as a Montana Hunter
My 300 RUM

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#2273616 - 06/24/08 09:44 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: JonA]

JonA
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Registered: 12/09/04
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Loc: Everett, WA

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Actually, this is probably as good a place as any to post this, for those who are curious about FFP scopes. Many can't or won't drop $1500 on an IOR or Leupold, much less twice that for a S&B or USO especially to try something new for the first time.

I recently picked up a Falcon Menace 4-14X44 FFP, which at $320 (group buy price) is on a whole different planet price-wise, opening the door for many to try who otherwise couldn't.

It's big (though note, much of the length comes from basically having a 2" sunshade built in). It pretty much dwarfs the 3-18 IOR (though it's noticeably lighter):

Mounted:

The turrets are a bit mushy if you're used to high end stuff, but they seem quite usable:

I opted for the SLR reticle, which is basically a copy of the famous Premier Gen II:

As a big fan of the MP-8, I think I would have liked their copy of that (MP-20) better in the middle with the long-short lines instead of dots, but they decided to skeletonize the posts on that reticle for this model for some reason. Being a FFP, you need something you can see at low power. I was afraid if I ever found myself walking through the woods with it on 4X that reticle would be nearly invisible. I think I can like the SLR just fine too.

A 4X shot:

14X:

Again:

In the end, it's a Mil reticle with 1/2 Mil marks. Personal likes/preferences aside, if you know one of them you know them all. They all work the same way so if you're familiar you can use any with about zero learning curve, be it a MLR, TMR, GenII, GAP, P4, MP-8, P4F, MP-20, etc. And many prefer the dot style of the Gen II anyway. It should be really familiar to many of the Military guys.

I spend much time (nice gloomy day that shows differences in glass better than a nice sunny day) comparing it to a Burris FFII 3-9, which I've felt has better glass than low end Leupolds and great for its price range, and with the IOR 3-18. It did quite well, both in daylight and dusk to dark. It was a good step optically above the FFII, but naturally the IOR was about 1.5 steps above it, depending upon power.

I'll know more after shooting it (seeing bullet holes vs. range, etc) and over the next month or so I'll compare it to many others. Side by side with a Leupold VXIII 4.5-14 will be a good test and probably more useful than against the IOR--that's just not fair. $;\)$ But initially I'm satisfied with the glass--especially given its price other features which simply aren't available on any other scope short of an IOR.

I'll have to live with the turrets, etc, for a while to see how I like them over the long haul. But as of now, everything seems quite usable and functional. I won't be too picky on a $320 scope.

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#2273644 - 06/24/08 10:10 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: JonA]

jwp475
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Registered: 04/24/05
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Loc: USA

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JonA, how do you take those picture?

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#2273680 - 06/24/08 10:54 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: JonA]

jpb
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Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1140
Loc: Umeå, Sweden

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Hi JonA

Very informative post. Thank you.

John

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#2274737 - 06/25/08 12:30 PM

Re: Front or Rear Focal Plane for LR Hunting Rig [Re: jwp475]

JonA
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Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1345
Loc: Everett, WA

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Originally Posted By: jwp475

JonA, how do you take those picture?

This thing they call a camera. $\:D$

Basically, with the scope held nice and steady (mounted on a tripod, rifle in sandbags, etc) I get the camera behind the scope. Sometimes it's helpful to extend a finger or two from one hand to the scope to help steady the camera. Mounted on a rifle works well as you can use the stock to steady your hands. But obviously you can only do that at the range pointing at targets; if your' pointing it at your neighbor's house it better be on a tripod or something. $;\)$

For full sized scopes I use a cradle designed for holding a big zoom lense an put the scope in that. I didn't happen to take a pic of that this time but you can do pretty much anything that works. For this scope/mount combo I just set it there:

Then I back it off to where you can't see the full FOV. Then I gradually get it closer, centering it as I go until you can pretty much see the full FOV.

Then I push the button 1/2 way down so it'll hopefully lock the focus. Then I make minor adjustments trying to get the full FOV nice and clear and snap the pic when I think I have it.

You need to have the reticle focused well for the camera, which may or may not be the same as what works for your eye. That can be hard to do with some scopes. If it's not, the autofocus will lock onto the reticle and give you a blurry pic of the target or lock onto the target and give you a blurry pic of the reticle.

But the #1 thing I can attribute all the "good" pics I've taken in recent years to...is a digital camera! In just a few minutes you can take 50 friggen pictures...pick out the best one and delete all the rest. Some turn out, some don't. I don't have the skills or patience to figure out why for each one so I don't ask, I just hit that delete button.

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