#2255690 - 06/14/08 06:21 AM
22 LR pass through?
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vbshootinrange
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Been shooting "rodents" out of my bird feeders. Usually my dogs get to them befor I do, and eat them. Just want to make sure my dogs aren't ingesting lead.
Haven't ever cut one open to look for bullets. Am thinkin they would pass clear through on somthing as small as a ground squirrel?
Have switched to mostly my 17 HMR, to make sure.(grin!)
Any thoughts?
Thanks! Virgil B.
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#2255890 - 06/14/08 08:42 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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Bend
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I've had a 22LR pass through a rockchuck stim to sturn on a 102 yard shot. I've also shot tree squirrels with a 22LR, the bullets were never found. I would have more concern with the lead frag in the meat chunks from the HMR then the 22LR.
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#2257115 - 06/15/08 06:21 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: Bend]
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vbshootinrange
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Bend,
Thanks for the reply. Never thought about fragments from the HMR. I knew the bullets blew up, guss there would be jacket fragments also. Hummmm.....
Used to eat ducks killed with lead shot, and bit down on pellets once in a while. Hasn't killed me yet....
Virgil B.
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#2268991 - 06/22/08 11:41 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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dustoffer
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"Used to eat ducks killed with lead shot, and bit down on pellets once in a while. Hasn't killed me yet...."
And, that is the key to it all--the exposure is pretty miniscule as compared to the exposure to lead-based paint that kids get into. Not a worry in my mind at all.
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#2269031 - 06/22/08 12:04 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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VarmintGuy
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Vbshootingrange: I am neither a scientist NOR a doctor (veterinary or any other type) but I am pretty sure the ingestion of small amounts of lead and the exposure to small amounts of lead take decades to adversely affect humans.
And tragically our best friends - Dogs - don't live decades.
I am sure you dogs rare ingestion of lead and their rapid digestive process won't cause their longevity to be shortened by much if at all.
Still any precaution you can take to keep the lead out of your dogs would be worthy.
My inspection of hundreds of 22 L.R. killed Ground Squirrel size creatures showed me that yes the 22 projectiles almost always pass through.
Best of luck in your Hunting and with your Dogs.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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#2271389 - 06/23/08 05:56 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: VarmintGuy]
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vbshootinrange
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VarmitGuy,
Thanks for the reply. I worry about the short lifetime of my furry buddies. We loose them so fast, compared to human lifetimes. Have lost so many already, I can't bear to loose another to soon!
One old dog lover, Virgil B.
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#2271878 - 06/23/08 10:14 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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Seafire
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Qyote:
Used to eat ducks killed with lead shot, and bit down on pellets once in a while. Hasn't killed me yet....
I once heard an old man say that about smoking.. been doing it for years and it hasn't killed me yet...
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A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46."
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#2272745 - 06/24/08 12:59 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: Seafire]
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David_Walter
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I work at one of the department of energy laboratories, and used to run a SUPERFUND site for the Air Force.
Contrary to popular myth, the lead in shot is the wrong type to disolve in your digestive tract, and the bullets don't hang around long enough to cause a dog harm.
The only thing about a 22 bullet that will kill you is being in the flight path.
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#2273126 - 06/24/08 04:48 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: David_Walter]
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vbshootinrange
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David Walter,
THANKS for you're reply! I'm getting some exellent advice here!
Virgil B.
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#2273159 - 06/24/08 05:20 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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1minute
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My guess is the 17 will result in more lead ingested simply due to bullet fragmentation. A recent article in the Journal of Wildlife Management addressed the lead contents of prairie dogs shot with a high vel centerfire unit and found enough lead that there will likely be some followup studies and eventually some legislation due to scavenging by raptors. It looked to be a good study, but it only addressed dogs shot with that particular cartridge. Nothing on a 22LR or a larger caliber.
It's a 2 part question asking how much lead and the particle size. Smaller particles = more exposed surface area. I do strongly suspect we will hear more on this in the coming years.
The EPA does not offer any suggestions as to safe levels of lead.
I hate to think of how many hours I've drifted down western steelhead rivers with split shot for the next rigging carried in my mouth. Hasn't seemed to bother me any. bother me any. bothr em ayn. 1Minute
Edited by 1minute (06/25/08 04:07 PM)
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#2273759 - 06/25/08 04:15 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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nighthawk
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I agree with David Walter. It's lead compounds that cause trouble, like lead compounds in paint. Lead the metal is pretty stable stuff and should pass through before it can be changed into a compound that a body could absorb. With birds lead pellets get ground by the gizzard so it's quite a different deal.
The only positive thing about a dog's short lifespan is we get to know more of them. Right now I'm wondering what kind of character I'll get to know next. So far they've all been quite different and special in their own way.
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#2273849 - 06/25/08 05:40 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: David_Walter]
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ConradNY
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So how come the environmentally ill are complaining about condors dying from eating lead from bullet frags in dead animals ?
Could it be that the lead remains in their stomachs to help with digestions ?
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#2274455 - 06/25/08 10:03 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: ConradNY]
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avagadro
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All this chemistry talk is hurtin' my head .....
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#2274518 - 06/25/08 10:31 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: 1minute]
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VarmintGuy
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1minute: When I was a child (from ages 8 through 12) myself and my neighborhood chums had access to small lead ingots, a lead melting pot and fire.
A bad combo this.
For we never tired of trying to melt lead out in the woods and pour it into crude molds we made from scrap wood. We would use chisels to carve out the outline of knives, toys and designs of all types.
We would sit around our campfires and tell stories as we waited for the lead in the pot to melt. Then we would pour the molten lead into our molds.
I know I have spent hundreds of hours inhaling lead fumes (if there is such a thing?) and hundreds of more hours playing with my freshly made lead toys!
I am waiting for the effects of this bit of delinquency to catch up with me any day now.
I hope your ability to spel and commyounikate returns ssoon.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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#2274814 - 06/25/08 01:10 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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SAcharlie
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I look to the airgun guys with what they know and do with those light rigs.
Here is one calculation for wound channel.
I get over 8.5" penetration at 50yds 750fps 29gr 22short.
Click on calculators and then Wound Channel Depth.
http://www.airgunexpo.com
_________________________
Nobody wants to hunt with me anymore!.......Richard B. Cheney
Democracy as we know it.....the ability to vote against one or the other.
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#2275257 - 06/25/08 05:04 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: SAcharlie]
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vbshootinrange
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NightHawk,
You're right on, all Dogs have totally different personalities. 3 months ago we got another pup. Another Golden Retriver, our 6th! Each one has been a joy to our lives, but different in so many ways.
Virgil B.
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#2275463 - 06/25/08 06:57 PM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: vbshootinrange]
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MILES58
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Some of the responses in this thread are not just wrong. They are dangerous!
Lead in shotgun pellets, paint chips, ingots, split shot and bullets is TOXIC. TOXIC all the time, period end discussion. Lead is lead. If the lead is available to chlorine it will move and be absorbed by a body ingesting it. Lead can be bound in compounds where a significant amount of lead is present but unavailable to chlorine such as lead crystal. It's kind of unlikely that much lead would be absorbed after ingestion of a crystal figurine. Intestinal blockage would be more worrisome.
Lead in any form in any portion of your digestive tract is exposed to chlorine in several forms. Lead and chlorine is extremely active metabolically and can cause damage fairly quickly.
Lead in an accidentally ingested shotgun pellet (split shot) might pass through limiting the amount of lead absorbed. As such removal is not a good choice for something like that. Repeated ingestion will increase the amount of absorbed lead. One won't kill you. Keep it up and it most certainly can and will. A body can eliminate lead but it is not a rapid process. The process can be accelerated, but it is not pleasant.
Talk about lead requiring decades to cause damage is ignorant prattle! Dogs, cats, children etc all can and do become severely affected by lead poisoning and sometimes die from it and it does not require years or months.
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#2275941 - 06/26/08 02:29 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: MILES58]
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nighthawk
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After hours of searching the Internet I have been unable to find ANY credible source that indicates occasional ingestion of small amounts of elemental lead by mammals poses a significant health risk. Soluble compounds, yes. Chronic exposure, yes. I'd be grateful if you could point me to such a source.
I have found sources (neglected to bookmark) that indicate such ingestion is pretty much benign in that elemental lead is not readily converted to a soluble salt even in the digestive system before it passes through. So rather minuscule amounts of lead is absorbed at any one instance.
If you have sources to the contrary, please post or PM me. I'd like to know.
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#2276147 - 06/26/08 06:24 AM
Re: 22 LR pass through?
[Re: nighthawk]
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MILES58
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The simplest way to illustrate this is the chemistry involved. This is chemistry I learned in Jr High School so before anyone decides to duck out on the "I don't do chemistry" excuse, it just ain't that hard.
Lead is an active element. Lead combines readily with sulphur and chlorine forming sulphates and chlorides. The simple and every day example that we all use is a lead acid storage battery in a car. You start with lead plates and sulphuric acid in the cells, Ionizing the lead by applying a charge (discharge to a charges battery moves a lot of lead from one plate to the other through the cell direction dependent on charge/discharge. That lead moves as lead sulphate, (PbSO4) Lead chloride is even more active. Your mouth is an ample source of salt, sodium chloride, (NaCl) and you stomach is an even better source of hydrogen chloride (hydrochloric acid HCl)
As for not being able to find references: My first try under lead toxicity turned up this:
"Today almost everyone is exposed to environmental lead. Exposure to lead and lead chemicals can occur through inhalation, ingestion or occasionally dermal contact. Lead mining and lead smelting are common in many countries, where children and adults can receive substantial lead exposure from sources uncommon today in the U.S. Most countries will have phased out use of leaded gasoline by 2007. Lead exposure in the general population (including children) occurs primarily through ingestion, although inhalation also contributes to lead body burden and may be the major contributor for workers in lead-related occupations. Inhalation is the second major pathway of exposure. Almost all inhaled lead is absorbed into the body, whereas from 20% to 70% of ingested lead is absorbed (with children generally absorbing a higher percentage than adults do). Dermal exposure plays a role for exposure to organic lead among workers, but is not considered a significant pathway for the general population, except in areas where leaded gasoline is used. Organic lead from gasoline additives may be absorbed directly through the skin.[32]
[edit]
Twenty to seventy percent of the ingested lead is absorbed. Does that give you an idea of how mobile lead can be in the presence of chlorine? It gets absorbed through the skin. SWEAT = Water + NaCl. That produces lead chloride which is what you absorb.
Lead absorption through the skin is commonly associated with lead miners, children playing in dirt contaminated by lead, lead fishing weight manufacturing employees etc. It is well documented and understood. That said, episodic exposure at lower levels does not of necessity produce clinical symptoms. Particularly with a reasonable amount of time between episodes.
Lead toxicity is not a subject for us to pooh-pooh. It makes us look like ignorant buffoons. Lead toxicity is very serious. It is very well documented. It is science that my father did in the thirties researching duck mortality in college.
The lowest oral LD50 (lethal dose that kills 50% of a test population) I found in a quick search was 1.2 mg/kg for rats. For the math challenged that's about .007 grains (like as in bullet weight grains) of lead to kill a one pound rat. That was tetraethyl lead. Methylated lead (organic lead) is roughly one hundred times that level, but still a very small amount of lead.
Considering that the CNS effects of lead poisoning occur at far below the LD50, and that they may not be reversible (Like my BIL who poisoned himself working on radiators) even a tiny amount can not only do you harm, it can do permanent harm.
below is a list of some 60 odd references.
1. ^ Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
2. ^ Needleman H (2004). "Lead poisoning". Annu Rev Med 55: 209–22. doi:10.1146/annurev.med.55.091902.103653. PMID 14746518.
3. ^ Couper RTL. (2006). "The Severe Gout of Emperor Charles V". N Engl J Med 355 (18): 1935–36. doi:10.1056/NEJMc062352. PMID 17079773.
4. ^ Celsus, de Medicina, V.27.12b
5. ^ Ali, Esmat A. (1993). "Damage to plants due to industrial pollution and their use as bioindicators in Egypt". Environmental Pollution 81 (3): 251. doi:10.1016/0269-7491(93)90207-5. PMID 15091810.
6. ^ Marmiroli, Marta; et al. (March 2005). "Evidence of the involvement of plant ligno-cellulosic structure in the sequestration of Pb: an X-ray spectroscopy-based analysis". Environmental Pollution 134 (2): 217. doi:10.1016/j.envpol.2004.08.004. PMID 15589649.
7. ^ Celsus, de Medicina, Book V, passim
8. ^ Vitruvius, De architectura VIII.6.10‑11
9. ^ Josef Eisinger, "Lead and Wine - Eberhard Gockel and the Colica Pictonum" [1]
10. ^ Brands, H. W. (2000). The First American: The Life and Times of Benjamin Franklin. Anchor Books. ISBN 970385495400.
11. ^ A fatal case of lead poisoning due to a retained bullet
12. ^ Increased lead absorption and lead poisoning from a retained bullet
13. ^ Fischer C (2007). Kaplan Medical USMLE Steps 2 and 3 Notes: Internal Medicine, Hematology, 176–177.
14. ^ Research Links Lead Exposure to Changes in Violent Crime Rates Throughout the 20th Century. ICF International.
15. ^ Nevin, Rick (May 2000). "How Lead Exposure Relates to Temporal Changes in IQ, Violent Crime, and Unwed Pregnancy". Environmental Research 83 (1): 1–22. doi:10.1006/enrs.1999.4045.
16. ^ Nevin, Rick (July 2007). "Understanding international crime trends: The legacy of preschool lead exposure". Environmental Research 104 (3): 315–336. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2007.02.008.
17. ^ "Research Links Lead Exposure, Criminal Activity", Washington Post, July 8, 2007. Retrieved on 2007-07-13.
18. ^ Masters, Roger D.. Water treatment with silicofluorides and lead toxicity. International Journal of Environmental Studies, Volume 56, Issue 4 June 1999, pages 435 - 449. Retrieved on 2008-06-07.
19. ^ Masters, Roger D.. provides a full bibliography, including both data linking lead with violent crime and showing effect of water treatment with silicofluorides.
20. ^ Reyes, Jessica Wolpaw (2007). Environmental Policy as Social Policy? The Impact of Childhood Lead Exposure on Crime. National Bureau of Economic Research, Working Paper No. 13097 (prepublication). Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
21. ^ eMedicine - Lead Encephalopathy : Article by Christopher P Holstege, MD, FACEP, FACMT. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
22. ^ How Lead Changes the Brain to Impair Learning and Memory, How Lead Changes the Brain to Impair Learning and Memory. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
23. ^ Lead in drinking water. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
24. ^ Alum Wins Investigative Reporting Award with Post Team (html). University of Maryland (February 25, 2005). Retrieved on 2007-11-07.
25. ^ “HONORS”, The Washington Post, February 23, 2005
26. ^ Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
27. ^ Lead and Brain Injury. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
28. ^ Lanphear, Hornung, et al. Low Level Environmental Lead Exposure And Children's Intellectual Function: an International Pooled Analysis. Children's Health. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
29. ^ Lead Toxicity: What is Lead?. United States Center for Disease Control. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
30. ^ Lead Toxicity Cover Page. United States Center for Disease Control. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
31. ^ http://www.leadsafekids.org
32. ^ Lead Toxicity: How Are People Exposed to Lead?. United States Center for Disease Control. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
33. ^ Lead Toxicity: Who Is at Risk of Lead Exposure?. United States Center for Disease Control (2002). Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
34. ^ Caravanos J, Weiss AL, Blaise MJ, Jaeger RJ (Feb 2006). "A survey of spatially distributed exterior dust lead loadings in New York City". Environmental Research 100 (2): 165–172. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2005.05.001.
35. ^ Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil. United States Environmental Protection Agency. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
36. ^ Lead Toxicity: Where Is Lead Found?. United States Center for Disease Control (2002). Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
37. ^ Lead Toxicity: Who Is at Risk of Lead Exposure?. United States Center for Disease Control. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
38. ^ "Detecting Lead in Paint on Toys With Handheld Scanner From Oxford Instruments", azom.com, August 28, 2007. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
39. ^ National Report on Human Exposure to Environmental Chemicals, CDC, July 2005.
40. ^ NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards. United States National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
41. ^ home page. American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists. Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
42. ^ NIOSH Topic: Adult Blood Lead Epidemiology and Surveillance (ABLES) | CDC NIOSH
43. ^ NIOSH ABLES. United States National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. Retrieved on 2007-10-04.
44. ^ FDA 1994 and FDA 1995 as cited in ATSDR 1999.
45. ^ Lead Toxicity: What Are U.S. Standards for Lead Levels?. United States Center for Disease Control (2002). Retrieved on 2007-09-09.
46. ^ Eric Lipton. "Senators Urge More Stringent Rules for Toy Safety", The New York Times, September 13, 2007. Retrieved on 2007-09-13.
47. ^ Llobet JM, Domingo JL, Paternain JL, Corbella J (1990). "Treatment of acute lead intoxication. A quantitative comparison of a number of chelating agents". Arch Environ Contam Toxicol 19 (2): 185–9. doi:10.1007/BF01056085. PMID 2322019.
48. ^ Simon JA, Hudes ES (1999). "Relationship of ascorbic acid to blood lead levels". JAMA 281 (24): 2289–93. doi:10.1001/jama.281.24.2289. PMID 10386552.
49. ^ Dawson E, Evans D, Harris W, Teter M, McGanity W (1999). "The effect of ascorbic acid supplementation on the blood lead levels of smokers". J Am Coll Nutr 18 (2): 166–70. PMID 10204833.
[edit] Other meanings
The phrase "lead poisoning" is sometimes used as slang for death by shooting, as bullets and shot are usually made of lead.
[edit] See also
* Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive -- RoHS Lead regulation in Europe
* Lead paint
* Environmental medicine
[edit] External links
* Argonne Lab confirms Beethoven lead poisoning, Dec. 2005
* ATSDR - Case Studies in Environmental Medicine (CSEM): Lead Toxicity U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (public domain)
* Helping Parents Prevent Lead Poisoning
* History of lead poisoning in the world
* Lead Poisoning and Rome
* National Pollutant Inventory - Lead and Lead Compounds Fact Sheet
* ToxFAQs: Lead
* Low-Level Environmental Lead Exposure and Children’s Intellectual Function: An International Pooled Analysis
* Plumbism in the pottery industry
* Environmental Quality Institute - Lead Poisoning Prevention Progam
* National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health - ABLES program
* National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health - Lead Topic Page
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