#2262161 - 06/18/08 09:43 AM
Bullseye Measurement
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43Shooter
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Does anyone remember or know what the size of the bulls were on the old military qualification course back in the early 60's for qualification with the M-1 and M-14? We shot at 200 yards, rapid & slow fire, 300 rapid & slow, 500 slow and it seems like once at 600 slow. I don't know if all service branches were the same for qualification back then.
Found an old range booklet for qualification week from 1963 and I've got to think those were some relatively good sized bulls to be using peep sights on at those ranges. I'd have to think the bulls also varied in size for different ranges. Thanks.
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#2262912 - 06/18/08 04:09 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: 43Shooter]
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rost495
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IIRC its appx 13 inches for the 5V target. It might be 18.. I never shot on them but saw them, but do recall the 500 yard target was same size black as the short range targets where for some reason.
I have some 5 V stashed somewhere as backers if no one else knows.
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#2263057 - 06/18/08 05:42 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: rost495]
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bpm990d
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I don't know a lot about USMC Quals, but on the Army side FM 23-5 dated 1958 outlines the COF and the targets used. they shot on the A target at 100, 200 & 300 yards and on the B target at 500 yards.
The A target was
5 - 12"
4 - 24"
3 - 36"
FRAME 72" X 48"
The B target was
5 - 20"
4 - 40"
3 - 60"
FRAME 72" X 72"
According to FM 23-71 dated 1957 the Army transitioned to shooting Quals. on E & F silhouettes.
Edited by bpm990d (06/18/08 05:43 PM)
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#2263170 - 06/18/08 06:59 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: bpm990d]
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rost495
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That is probably the precursor to the 5V target from the looks of it, not that it means anything.
I knew it was something different than the decimal we shoot now, that is almost or exactly 13 inches at 200, 18 at 300, and 36 at 600 and 44 at 800/1000. There are different size targets for 500, and some of the prone games.
As I recalled the old targets where very similar to current ones for 200-300 but smaller for mid raneg than what we use now.
Jeff
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Get as close as you can, but use your skills as required
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#2263668 - 06/19/08 06:28 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: rost495]
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bpm990d
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Jeff,
I didn't have a picture of the target that shows the relative size of the A & B target so I posted that one. You are correct that it had a V ring, but I don't think the Army ever used it for qualifications as there is no place to indicate Vs on the score cards. If you look at this page and look at the FM 23-5 M1 Rifle Marksmanship dated 1958 it has pictures and dimensions on page 143. However back in the 40s the targets listed in the manuals for the M1 & M1903 didn't have a V ring and the A target only had a 10" bullseye.
I'm curious to find out if the OP was USMC or Army. I've been trying to find out more information and to determine if any soldiers used the old bullseye Qual. course into the 60s or 70s. I think when the Trainfire was adopted in the late 50s it put an end to the Army qualifying on bullseye targets but have heard differently from a couple of posters.
B
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#2264209 - 06/19/08 11:25 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: bpm990d]
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rost495
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Google up nationalmatch.us and ask the question, generally a LOT of older shooters that may be able to share the info, lots of them had 40s through current military service shooting backgrounds.
Jeff
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Get as close as you can, but use your skills as required
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#2264264 - 06/19/08 11:59 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: rost495]
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CGPAUL
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Trainfire in the early 60`s,62-65 was done on pop-up`s. I qualified expert with the M-1 on these targets at Ft. Lenardwood, Mo. in 62, and in 64 or 65 with the M-15 at Bragg.
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#2264315 - 06/19/08 12:29 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: CGPAUL]
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bpm990d
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Trainfire in the early 60`s,62-65 was done on pop-up`s.
That is what my research indicates. Thanks for relaying your experience.
B
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#2265442 - 06/20/08 07:47 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: 43Shooter]
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derby_dude
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I was in Basic in 67, we used a sight in taget to sight in then went to pop up human target to qualify. The targets were of different sizes from 50 meters to 800 meters. BTW: This was US Army.
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"Self-reliance, free thinking, and capitalism is anathema to both the power of government and the Church." Derby Dude
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#2265538 - 06/20/08 09:04 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: derby_dude]
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bpm990d
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I was in Basic in 67, we used a sight in taget to sight in then went to pop up human target to qualify. The targets were of different sizes from 50 meters to 800 meters. BTW: This was US Army.
Interesting. What did the Course of Instruction include? Did they teach you hold over to engage targets at that distance or did you have to estimate range and then adjust your sights from you BSZ?
Did you have to do this as part of a qualification, or was it part of an advanced rifle marksmanship COI?
Thanks,
B
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#2266002 - 06/20/08 02:34 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: CGPAUL]
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43Shooter
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We had bullseye targets in 62 and 63, went to pop up silhouette targets in 64. The 64 USMC range data book says "experimental course". From this data book in July of 64 we shot 200 timed and rapid, 300 rapid and 500 timed with M-14s. As I recall some people thought the pop ups were tougher and some thought the bullseyes were.
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#2267063 - 06/21/08 07:03 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: bpm990d]
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derby_dude
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I was in Basic in 67, we used a sight in taget to sight in then went to pop up human target to qualify. The targets were of different sizes from 50 meters to 800 meters. BTW: This was US Army. Interesting. What did the Course of Instruction include? Did they teach you hold over to engage targets at that distance or did you have to estimate range and then adjust your sights from you BSZ? Did you have to do this as part of a qualification, or was it part of an advanced rifle marksmanship COI? Thanks, B
It was over 42 years ago and I don't remember all the details but I'll do the best I can. I do remember that we had about two weeks instruction that was part of qualification and not IIRC part of any advanced training and we use M-14 rifles. I always considered myself lucky to have drawn Ft. Bragg as a Basic Training slot because all our Drill Sergeants were Combat Infantry, Airborne, or Special Forces qualified and had many tours of duty in Vietnam and other war zones. They knew their stuff. I remember that the Drill Sergeants said the hardest targets to hit would be the 50 and 75 meter targets and the targets over 500 meters and they were right. The best way to knock over the 50 and 75 meter targets was to hit the dirt in front of the targets and let the dirt knock over the targets. Our rifles were sighted in for 250 meters using 150 grain ball ammo in 7.62 NATO (.308 Win.). We used Kentucky windage for the qualification course using the pop up targets. The M-14 using 150 grain ball Ammo was pretty flat shooting from a 100 to 500 meters and made even a crappie shooter such as my self look good.
I doubt I could have done as well with the M-16 at the time as the M-16 of the day was a piece of crap.
_________________________
“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” General George S. Patton Jr.
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and capitalism is anathema to both the power of government and the Church." Derby Dude
Sell on greed; Buy on fear.
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#2275596 - 06/25/08 07:48 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: derby_dude]
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bpm990d
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I won't say anything about your combat experienced cadre instructing you to miss targets at 50M by shooting in front of them. :-/ I heard the same thing in basic in 88 but that concerned 300M targets. Having come from a competitive shooting background I was pretty unimpressed.
So you were taught kentucky windage/elevation to be able to hit targets at 800M? I have not been able to find any course of instruction that includes shooting to 800M in any of the FMs of that era. All of them have a max range of 350m. However I have heard from a couple of people that claimed they were banging 800M E silhouette pop up targets with ball ammo. One of them claimed they were banging 1000M E pop ups.
To hit at 800M with a zero of 250M you would have had a hold over 21 feet. That is kind of hard to do when the front sight obscures the target at that distance. If your range estimation was off by 50 meters you would have been off by four feet. Given that the E silhouette is 3.3 feet high that would result in a miss. Also if you miss judged the wind by a little more than 1 MPH that would result in a miss at that range.
I'd really like to find a reference to an Army manual that has this 800M/1000M course of fire on pop up targets. I've done a lot of long range shooting with Palma rifles at 800, 900 & 1000 yards with 155 grain match grade bullets fired out of bolt action target rifles and I'm a little incredulous. I've shot the Palma match twice at Camp Perry and made the Palma 20 both times. I remain skeptical.
I'm open to hear from anyone that has an experience that they would like to relate
Respectfully,
B
Edited by bpm990d (06/26/08 04:41 AM)
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#2276658 - 06/26/08 09:43 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: bpm990d]
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rost495
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Palma 20 at Perry, bound to crappy 155s, nice shooting!
Jeff
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#2277747 - 06/26/08 07:31 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: derby_dude]
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rost495
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The difference as its explained to me, between the dog and foxtrot targets is one is head and shoulders, IE you are close and thats probaly all you'll see, and further out its most of a full torso IE standing person. They were not giving you an easier target, one that just made more sense.
Jeff
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#2277782 - 06/26/08 07:42 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: rost495]
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derby_dude
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The difference as its explained to me, between the dog and foxtrot targets is one is head and shoulders, IE you are close and thats probaly all you'll see, and further out its most of a full torso IE standing person. They were not giving you an easier target, one that just made more sense.
Jeff
Makes sense to me. Thanks.
_________________________
“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” General George S. Patton Jr.
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and capitalism is anathema to both the power of government and the Church." Derby Dude
Sell on greed; Buy on fear.
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#2279866 - 06/27/08 07:53 PM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: 43Shooter]
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IndyCA35
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I made "Master" in 1961 at Camp Perry. The 200 yard 5-V target had a 12" aiming bull, which was the 5-ring. The "V" ring was 6" but was changed to 4" right about that time. We used the same target for 300 yards. I forget the size of the 600 yard target but the 1000 yard target had a 36" 5-ring and 20" V-ring.
It was required to use the 30-06 cartridge, except for 1000 yards, which wasn't so bad as they gave you free ammo with a 173 grain boat tail FMJ bullet at 2640 fps. The most popular 1000 yard cartridge, aside from 30-06, was the 300 H&H.
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#2284073 - 06/30/08 06:41 AM
Re: Bullseye Measurement
[Re: IndyCA35]
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rost495
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173 had tarred bullet seals too right? Did you break those seals by seating a hair deeper for consistent release tension like I read many folks did?
Also curious, did you manage what was called lifetime master? I always heard about that but never ran into that class when I was shooting. Unfortunately(or not) I went from unclassified to Expert, and then Master at Perry the first year there, in 92, and then to high master with the AR15 Service Rifle.
You were shooting 03 or Garand?
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