#2273564 - 06/24/08 09:10 PM
CVA Safety?
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denton
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Registered: 06/27/04
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I picked up a near-new CVA Bobcat sidelock a few days ago as a second muzzleloader for one of my grandsons to use.
Doing a little web research, I found a lot of heat on the subject of CVA quality. Apparently there have been some nasty kabooms and seriously injured people.
Are these rifles as safe as any? Or not? Would you let your grandkid hunt with one?
I'm running 370 grain cast bullets over 70 grains of Pyrodex. As the boys get older, that may move up to 90 or so.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2275462 - 06/25/08 06:55 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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captchee
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Registered: 10/13/06
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Loc: Idaho
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yes they are safe as any . just follow the factory recommendations.
The hype is really over the barrel pressures . but these are based on very old requirements . Keep it clean and in working order and it will be fine .
If anything reall there is to watch it’s the bolster . If it turns get it fixed .
Normally though that was a problem with rifles made in the 70-early 1980’s
As a side note here , CVA’s rifles were made from the same folks that make traditions . Same quality and pretty much same rifle just a different name . just like GM and Chevy
Same makers just different name
with alittle work they make very nice rifles to .
here is one i just finished for a customer
and they shoot to . this was before i adjusted the sights
Edited by captchee (06/25/08 07:05 PM)
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#2275562 - 06/25/08 07:31 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: captchee]
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denton
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Thanks.
That's a fine looking piece of work BTW.
All this came up because I wanted to fill my promise to my grandsons by taking them muzzleloader hunting... lot fewer people in the field. But I'm finding that I get a kick out of shooting ML.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2275653 - 06/25/08 08:09 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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captchee
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Registered: 10/13/06
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well denton , if you want to know more about the traditional side of muzzleloading this site will help you out a whole lot . all good folks . its a friendly family site where you can get your questions answered , truthfully .
Traditional Muzzleloader Association "TMA"
i think you will find its one of , if not the best place on the net .
no spam , no flaming , no vulgarity and no one telling you to do a search for an answer no mater how basic the question .
there also is alot of traffic so you get answers quickly and of high quality from some of the best know gun makers in the nation and over seas as well folks with years and years of experience
While this link will take you to the organizations forum , the organization is no an internet one but a national organization formed to help get out the truths and dispell the myths about traditional muzzleloading .
Not just hunting but reenacting as well as historic information .
there is alot of information there as well about the CVA's , Traditions, TC , Investment arms , Jukar .........
as well as custom guns an and original peices .
Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Edited by captchee (06/25/08 08:12 PM)
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#2277037 - 06/26/08 12:43 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: captchee]
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denton
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That's an interesting site. Thank you for the suggestion.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2277553 - 06/26/08 05:56 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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bigblock455
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Yes they are safe. This problem was on the inlines made in 95 and 96.
This recall/warning does not affect the sidelocks.
Im not sure what kind of groups you are getting, but my bobcat loves 80g pyrodex select and a 295g aerotip powerbelt. I also have a cva mountain stalker that will shoot 1" groups @ 100 yards, open sights with the same load above, but using the Hollow Points. Aerotips shrink down to a nickel size group.
They are light weight and kick like a mule with heavy loads but they are darn accurate!
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#2277593 - 06/26/08 06:13 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: bigblock455]
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captchee
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if you take off the butt pad and fill/ insert lead shot mixed with epoxy , it will bring up the wieght of the stock and reduce the felt recoil .
the recoil comes from the plastic stocks being way to light .
Edited by captchee (06/27/08 05:32 AM)
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#2277635 - 06/26/08 06:36 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: captchee]
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bigblock455
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exactly. Makes you wonder what the hell is wrong with the guys shooting inlines with 3 pellets and a 250g sabot in their light rifle. Even with a limbsaver slip on pad on the bobcat, that rifle still wants to jump right out of your hands.
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#2277975 - 06/26/08 09:24 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: bigblock455]
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denton
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I've been pleased with the groups the Bobcat is giving me, and I haven't really done much to optimize them.
Right now, the load is 70 grains of Pyrodex under a 371 grain bullet that I'm casting myself. You're right about the recoil. Momma!
I was shooting 5" low at 25 yards, so I had to grind a bunch off the front sight. Tomorrow, I may get a chance to find out if I got it about right.
For $50 in near new condition, it's going to provide a lot of enjoyment for a little investment.
My T/C Firehawk does groups that are a little better, because my eyes are old and do better with the red dot sight mounted on it. I can shoot the Bobcat about as well as I can see...plenty good for one of the g'kids to bring down a deer.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2278012 - 06/26/08 10:01 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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bigblock455
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try this and see how your groups do.
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#2281055 - 06/28/08 02:34 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: bigblock455]
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denton
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As captchee suggested, I put some wheelweight lead in the back of the stock... about 3/4 pound I guess.
It certainly balances the rifle up a lot better. Have to wait until the JB Weld sets to find out about recoil. Seems like it ought to help quite a bit.
Knocked the rear sight sideways .030". Should be about right to line up the windage... .005" at the sights works out to 1" at 100 yards.
The front sight is anchored in the middle, but a moderate whack will tilt it forward or back about .020"... cheap design. Put a little dab of JB Weld under the front and back of the front sight, so it is not free to rock. Math says I should trim .015" off the top of it.
Shot a 3" group at 100 with it yesterday.
Sighting in a muzzleloader is a good bit more tedious that adjusting the scope on a rifle!
Cheap as it is, it is looking like a very effective rifle.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2281069 - 06/28/08 02:46 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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bigblock455
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Just think, Rifles that cost $6-7-800 have a hard time putting a full bore conical into a 3" group @ 100yrds. Thats good for open sights and the bullet you are using.
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#2281180 - 06/28/08 04:02 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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Tom264
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I was shooting 5" low at 25 yards, so I had to grind a bunch off the front sight.
Some friends and I all decided to buy these cheap Bobcats. (wallyworld had em on sale for $45) each one shot exactly as you described....we all had to file the front sight too.
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#2281336 - 06/28/08 05:21 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: Tom264]
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bigblock455
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Yeah i had to file off a lot. The lyman great plains rifle is the exact same way too.
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#2282287 - 06/29/08 08:00 AM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: bigblock455]
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captchee
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Registered: 10/13/06
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Loc: Idaho
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The sites are not generalized , they are just installed .
This is done because the stock has a common draw length , modern drop and no cheek plate .
As such depending on how you hold the rifle and where your cheek falls , the sight picture will change .
Next time you go shoot , use a piece of tape to line up where you cheek rests on the stock . This will aid you in making sure you lining up the same each time
Personally
I have yet to see one that actually fit anyone correctly but they do shoot and shoot very good even with RB once you find the load .combination .
You will also find that conical it will shoot well . Even a slow twist barrel will shot well with them . However the key is the conical itself.
It sounds to me like you have found a very good one for you rifle and load .
Now something I would recommend with JB weld . Do yourself a big favored and stay away from it .
Now I know this sounds harsh but as I gunsmith , I have to say that IMO there is no place that it will work .
While it may seem to be doing the job it will let go over time . Maybe not today , tomorrow or next year but it will let go at the worst possible time .
Silver solder is a much better choice and is why we all use it when affixing items . You can get it in different melting temps and in different strengths . It also comes in solid rolls or in a syringe with flux already added .
For under 15 bucks you should be able to get common silver solder “not Acid core “as well as a cheep butane pin torch that will work to apply it .
Silver solder will hold much better then JB weld ever thought about doing . You wont have to worry about the cleaning solvents or for that mater heat and recoil softening things up .
Also for adding the weight to the stock standard 5 min epoxy works very well especially when mixed with lead shot and poured into the cavity . The other plus to it is that even at low heat like from a real hot hair dryer . Epoxy can be softened up enough to come out easily.
The other item I really like for plastic and synthetic stocks is a product called Plastic weld which is put out by a company call Performance polymers .
It sets up quick and in 24 hours you will find you will probably brake the plastic before you break the area you glued . So if you find that your weight is enough but keeps popping out you might try that . Home depo sells it as does true value . it’s a very good product .
Now a question here if I may .
You said your front sight is anchored in the middle ?
Are you saying that its not on a dove tail ?
I have seen a lot of these rifles by all three companies that sell them under different names .IE Bobcat , Youth Hunter , Deer hunter , dear stalker and such……..
Depending on the production run things like sights and locks change “Yes there are two different locks found on these rifles” but I have never seen a permanently affixed front sight if yours is this way , please confirm so I can add that info to my list of possible changes in production .
Normally the blade or blade and bead, is set to a dove tail . Windage is changed by taping the dove tail right or left . Elevation is done by filing
Yes the sights are cheep . That being said though I actually have had customer prefer them . For what they are I have to say they are very adequate ,even though care must be taken to not bend or break them .
Something else that I would advise here that 99% of folks don’t realize .
that’s the clean out screw on the bolster . Before you do a lot of shooting take this out . This is the screw on the side of the bolster . Just below the nipple .
Carefully remove it and cover the threads with anti-seize . If you don’t you will find that after some shooting , you wont be able to get this out .
See because CVA through the years requested at least 3 different bolster designs from Jukar mostly do to improper customer care. this clean out has become very important , especially on the through bolster design which your rifle will have .
This bolster goes all the way through the barrel wall and all the way across the bore , sealing to the other side of the bore . Center of the this threaded shaft and center of the bore will be a hole or a oblong cut ..
As such the flaim must make 2 , 90 deg turns to get to the main charge .
The problem with this is this long neck also builds up with fouling that cant be reached from under the nipple . Even flushing will not get it all . As such , over time this fouling becomes carbonized and rock hard . Slowly it begins to restrict the flash channel . When to much builds up , the ignition becomes very inconsistent to none at all .
The clean out screw gives you access to this channel .
as such if you cover the screws threads with anti sieze , it will remain easy to remove for cleaning
This is getting long so I will end by saying this . Yes these rifles are cheep . But taken care of they will do a very good job . I bet I restock at lest a dozen of these each year for folks even though the restock runs 250+ . 350 if I provide the rifle . Now that seems a lot for what once was a buy all day for 39.00 rifle . But now these rifles are going at 100-150 when you can find them . So if you run a cross one new that less then 100 you have found a good by . Remember they are in limited supply . No more are being made that I know of .
So the price for a rifle that is know to shoot well for a customer and then restocked to properly fit is still well below the cost of replace said rifle not to mention you get different stock configurations as well as figured woods and more bling , bling LOL
Edited by captchee (06/29/08 08:07 AM)
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#2284121 - 06/30/08 07:13 AM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: captchee]
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denton
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Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 2550
Loc: Utah
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Thanks for all the good ideas!
The front sight is a brass blade on a dovetail. The problem is that the blade is crimped to the dovetail slide only in the middle, and the bottom of the blade is .020" above the barrel. So if you whack solidly on the back of the blade, the rear goes down and the front comes up. All I've used JB Weld for is as a shim so the blade can't rock.
As you point out, the flame has to go around some corners to reach the powder. It's worse than that: There is some unused space for the primer gas to expand into... larger volume, smaller temperature. I found out that the cure for some of that is to pour the powder in, then turn the rifle on its right side, and shake powder down into the hole. That way you can get reliable ignition and you don't have a variable empty volume. Before that, I was experimenting with an adapter that lets you use SR primers... very unhandy, but it reliably lit the powder.
I did stumble across a very old tube of anti-seize compound the other day. That's a very good idea.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2287232 - 07/01/08 08:47 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: bigblock455]
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denton
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Made probably the final tweaking trip to the range today.
I took the time to do a 5-shot group, which was 6 1/2" at 100 yards. I gather that is reasonably respectable for a muzzle loader and cast mini bullets. It is sufficient to bring down a deer, and that is all it needs to do.
If I get a chance, I do want to chronograph the load just for grins. According to published data, it might be doing 1100-1200 FPS.
Summary:
Disassembled, polished, and lubed the mechanism. Now fires every time.
Moved the rear sight left, and ground about 1/8" off the front sight. It's on target.
Shimmed the front sight with JB Weld so that it can't rock back and forth.
Installed lead weights in the rear of the stock.
I do believe that it is ready for a 13 YO to take it to the range to practice, and then hunting.
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Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.
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#2287384 - 07/01/08 10:57 PM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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bigblock455
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just a tip. try the ox yoke or any other brand, Felt wads. This goes on top of the powder and then you seat the bullet. It helped me greatly.
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#2287684 - 07/02/08 07:08 AM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: bigblock455]
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denton
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Interesting idea. What changes when you do that?
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#2287906 - 07/02/08 09:37 AM
Re: CVA Safety?
[Re: denton]
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bigblock455
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Pressure in the barrel. If the projectile fits to loose, its more than likely going around the bullet and not providing a seal.
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