#2277123 - 06/26/08 01:27 PM
Thought you'd all enjoy...
|
RickB
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
|
Offline
|
|
In light of todays Supreme Court ruling I thought you'd all enjoy what I just got from the BATF today.
It's a pamphlet entitled: "Project Gunrunner: The Southwest Border Initiative" and it was sent out to all FFL's in the Southwestern US.
On the first page it lists "key indicators" that your customer may be a gunrunner buying guns and transporting them into Mexico.
1. Wants to buy a large number of the same model firearm, or similar firearms.
2. Chooses only military style semi-auto rifles (.223 or 7.62x39) and large frame semi-auto pistols (.38 super, 9mm, .45 and 5.7mm)
3. Orders more of the same firearms
4. Structures their purchases to avoid ATF reporting requirements
5. Attempts to conceal their conversations with each other
6. Not haggling or questioning the prices, money is not an issue
7. Pays in cash with the same denomination. They may use a credit card.
8. Have little or no knowledge of the firearms they are purchasing
9. Lacks the physical stature to handle the firearm being purchased (I'm not making this up!)
10 Avoids entering into conversation or becomes evasive to questions posed to them.
I would also assume that asking if they can pay for their firearms in Peso's or with coke would also qualify as an indicator that they might be a gunrunner. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277338 - 06/26/08 03:23 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: RickB]
|
Mauserkid
Member
Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 230
Loc: Stevensville, Montana
|
Online
|
|
Thats our tax dollar at work there boys... Gotta love that one...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277350 - 06/26/08 03:37 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: Mauserkid]
|
RickB
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
|
|
Offline
|
|
What makes this recent one twice as funny is that only last year they sent out Spanish Language 4473 forms to use for customers that don't speak or read English...and now they are warning us about Mexican gun runners.
The BATF agent that came for my last inspection and license renewal barely spoke English himself. I spent half of the inspection saying: "Excuse me?"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277475 - 06/26/08 05:04 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: RickB]
|
1234567
Campfire Regular
Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 704
|
|
Offline
|
|
Off topic a bit, but I have a question for FFL holders, and possiblely lawyers.
A few weeks ago, I purchased a rifle in a pawn shop. I wouldn't have bought it, but I thought what he was asking was reasonable.
The dealer charged me $5.00 to check with the ATF or whoever it is you call when a customer buys a gun.
Is it legal to do this? Or moral? Or ethical? I thought the ATF did the check for free.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277614 - 06/26/08 06:22 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: 1234567]
|
shooter42
Campfire Regular
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 572
Loc: eastern pa
|
|
Offline
|
|
1234567,
i can't answer for any other state system but here in pa the state charges me one time to run the purchasers info and charges me the second time to give me the approval number. some dealers here add those charges on as extra's, i put them into the purchase price of the firearm and tell the customer if they are denied there is a fee for the denial.
max
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277703 - 06/26/08 07:12 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: 1234567]
|
like2shoot
Campfire Regular
Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 1330
Loc: Tidewater, VA.
|
|
Online
|
|
In Va. the fee for instant back ground check is set by law at $2.00, approved or not.
_________________________
Shoot straight, shoot often.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277914 - 06/26/08 08:42 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: like2shoot]
|
Reloder28
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 1681
Loc: Deer Park, Tx
|
|
Offline
|
|
The B.A.T.F. reminds me of the Scripture in Ecclesiastes:
"Even a fool, when he walks down the road, displays to everyone that he is a fool."
I've yet to deal with any of the ATF agents that were anything more than cookie cutter little lead soldiers. No mind of their own, no smarts, etc. Lights were on but no one was home.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2277926 - 06/26/08 08:54 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: Reloder28]
|
RickB
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Maybe they'd be better off just sticking to the alcohol and tobacco.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2278698 - 06/27/08 09:31 AM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: RickB]
|
1234567
Campfire Regular
Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 704
|
|
Offline
|
|
I have only had one experience with the B.A.T.F.
I was the original purchaser of a hand gun, and I sold it. It was sold several times, and was seized in a drug raid. The B.A.T.F. wanted to know who I sold it to.
I told them, and the agent was as courteous and professionel as anyone I have ever delt with. He asked his questions, I answered them truthfully, and he was satisfied. No hassle or anything.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2278990 - 06/27/08 11:56 AM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: 1234567]
|
mwarren
Member
Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 130
Loc: N.C.
|
|
Offline
|
|
Thanks for sharing RickB, pretty funny. Definitely a drag on tax dollars. All I can offer is that if you lived on the east coast, the B.A.T.F. would be wasting those tax dollars while following people home from gun shows, or going to your neighborhood and alerting the neighbors that you were buying a gun and did they know that.
Hopefully, we don't have any more of those actions.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2279008 - 06/27/08 12:08 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: 1234567]
|
muledeer
Campfire Guide
Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 4885
Loc: Ketchikan, AK, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Unless there is a state system in place, the FFL dealer calls NCIC. In Alaska, at least, the dealer is free to charge whatever the market will bear. (Imagine that...a free market economy in governemnt services...) One dealer I know charges me $30; another charges $15; yet another, a friend, charges $0. It's all up to them. But they have to make the call.
As far as the BATF flyer, I guess I don't see the problem with advising dealers that illegal trade in firearms is going on, and suggesting tell-tales to look for. I would bet that everything on the list happened in a gun shop somewhere and was 'overlooked" by the dealer/clerk. Remember -- China-Mart sells guns too...
On the other hand, in a perfect world, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives would be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Dennis
Edited by muledeer (06/27/08 12:10 PM)
_________________________
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2279395 - 06/27/08 03:54 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: muledeer]
|
RickB
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Perhaps if the federal government took some of the money they spend on all these ridiculous, do-nothing programs and used it to secure our southern border the Mexican "gunrunners" might have a bit harder time taking these weapons back into Mexico.
And perhaps another helpful tactic would be to require that purchasers of firearms have to speak English instead of supplying Spanish language forms for them that are paid for by our tax dollars.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2279868 - 06/27/08 07:54 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: RickB]
|
Dave_Skinner
Campfire Regular
Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 1003
Loc: The Treasure State
|
|
Offline
|
|
A Spanish 4473?
Now, how does a CITIZEN of the UNITED STATES become so without learning ENGLISH? Or are these green card PERMANENT RESIDENTS? I'm getting to the point where there should be a requirement...come here, fine; learn English well; take your exam for citizenship within 7 years of arrival; pass the thing -- OR -- vamoso, sayonara, hasta la vista, auf weidersehen. Jumping Jehosaphat!
_________________________
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2279880 - 06/27/08 08:01 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: Dave_Skinner]
|
mwarren
Member
Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 130
Loc: N.C.
|
|
Offline
|
|
+1 on not wasting tax dollars to print a 4473 form in Spanish too. I have a new baby...my wife and I received a congratulations card from ou governor, the top portion was in English and the bottom portion in Spanish. wtf.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2279915 - 06/27/08 08:17 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: mwarren]
|
NevadaDan
Campfire Regular
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 650
Loc: Nevada
|
|
Offline
|
|
123..
The "Brady Check" is $25 in Nevada (by law) and free in Montana.
-DP
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2279928 - 06/27/08 08:26 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: Dave_Skinner]
|
RickB
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
|
|
Offline
|
|
A Spanish 4473?
Now, how does a CITIZEN of the UNITED STATES become so without learning ENGLISH? Or are these green card PERMANENT RESIDENTS? I'm getting to the point where there should be a requirement...come here, fine; learn English well; take your exam for citizenship within 7 years of arrival; pass the thing -- OR -- vamoso, sayonara, hasta la vista, auf weidersehen. Jumping Jehosaphat!
Unfortunately, you don't have to be a citizen or permanent resident with a green card to buy a firearm in the USA. Under certain circumstances nonimmigrant aliens are allowed to purchase firearms as long as they meet certain requirements.
Here's the Spanish version of the 4473 form on the ATF's web site.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms
Edited by RickB (06/27/08 08:37 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2281099 - 06/28/08 03:14 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: RickB]
|
1234567
Campfire Regular
Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 704
|
|
Offline
|
|
What if the dealer didn't speak Spanish? You wouldn't know whether the form was filled out correctly or not.
Is the next law from the ATF going to require all firearms dealers to learn to speak Spanish?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2281141 - 06/28/08 03:41 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: 1234567]
|
RickB
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 1359
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
|
|
Offline
|
|
And Arabic, Farsi, Chinese, ebonics...let's see, what am I leaving out?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#2290280 - 07/03/08 01:23 PM
Re: Thought you'd all enjoy...
[Re: RickB]
|
Fast_Ed
Member
Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 229
Loc: SE Wisconsin
|
|
Offline
|
|
On the other hand, in a perfect world, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives would be a convenience store, not a government agency.
+1
Fast Ed
_________________________
Define your manhood not by success, but by significance.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: RickBin, SYSOP
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
18521 Members
66 Forums
190486 Topics
2342224 Posts
Max Online: 1366 @ 08/07/07 07:51 PM
|
|
|
