#2284771 - 06/30/08 02:52 PM
Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
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varmintsinc
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I understand performance can vary based on the base metals and heat treatment but over all is it just cosmetic?
I have noticed that most of the blanks available focus on the pattern and not necessarily the steel or cutting qualities.
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#2284995 - 06/30/08 05:12 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: varmintsinc]
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djpaintless
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Damascus is for looks not performance. Some of it works just fine but it won't outperform several of the different premium steels out there..........................DJ
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#2285216 - 06/30/08 07:07 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: varmintsinc]
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LouisB
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My question is whether Damascus will perform as well as a nice carbon steel blade.
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#2286954 - 07/01/08 06:26 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: LouisB]
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Tod
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Depending on the steels used, damascus can make a very nice blade. Since the softer steel wears quicker than the harder one, you end up with microserrations on the edge.
BTW, not all 'damascus' steels are edge to show the pattern.
I agree with djpaintless that it won't out perform many of the 'wonder steels', but it is very much competitive with simple carbon steels, particularly if you aren't just selecting for best etching pattern.
Keep in mind that traditional Japanese swords and other blades are essentially 'damascus' patterns, and their cutting ability is well regarded.
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#2288260 - 07/02/08 12:29 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: Tod]
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1234567
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One advantage I have heard of with damascus steels, and also differential tempered and forged carbon steel blades, but never tested, is that they are more flexible than a stock removal type blade that is the same hardness all the way from edge to back.
There is a picture on one of these threads of a differential tempered blade that one of the contributers recently made. This blade should be more flexable than a blade with uniform hardness.
The softer back will flex and offer support to the harder and more brittle cutting edge. The damascus blades are more flexible because of the alternating hard and soft layers.
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#2288610 - 07/02/08 02:55 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: 1234567]
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Boise
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I'm not doubting your flexibility observations but it does bring a question to mind - why would you want a blade to flex?
Re-reading your post several times leads me to think the flexing mentioned provides more tolerance for abuse such as prying, hacking, etc.
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#2289170 - 07/02/08 08:05 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: Boise]
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varmintsinc
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I'm not doubting your flexibility observations but it does bring a question to mind - why would you want a blade to flex?
Re-reading your post several times leads me to think the flexing mentioned provides more tolerance for abuse such as prying, hacking, etc.
One of the original sources I saw (I think the Engath site) indicated the primary advantage in a differential heat treat is the ability to get a harder edge for increased edge retention without creating a blade subject to castastrophic failure (shattering) due to impact or inappropriate use as a pry tool. The same site also makes reference to the alternating layers of hard and soft steel in damascus contributing to the micro serrations as mentioned by Tod.
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Brag about how close you got not how far you shot.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
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#2290007 - 07/03/08 10:56 AM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: varmintsinc]
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1234567
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Boise:
Compare a glass blade with one made from spring steel. This is an extreme comparison. Although you might never need or utilize the flexibility of the spring steel, it is there, and will withstand more abuse and hard use than a very brittle glass blade. The difference between bending and shattering.
However, a stock removal type blade, hardened all the way through, say at C61, is plenty strong enough, although what some people consider abuse is just considered normal, everyday use for others. I have abused knives I made, for testing purposes, but I would not do it to another makers knife, nor do I recommend that owners of my blades do it. They will take some abuse, but there is a limit. Some people can tear the horn off an anvil with a rubber hammer, but that is going to extremes.
I didn't explain it all that well, but I was primarily talking about large, what I refer to as general purpose "camp knifes,"
knives that could be and probably are used for chopping and other strenous chores. At knife shows, some knife makers have cutting contests, where they chop and hack boards. Just my opinion, but I would think a damascus or differential tempered blade would have an advantage in this type of use.
Yes, it would be difficult to try to explain a need for the difference in flexibility between a damascus blade and a stock removal blade with a small caping knife.
And, there is the thing about the small teeth aiding in cutting, but I don't have any experience with that.
I have seen illustrations in knife books and magazines where the knife maker would clamp a blade in a vice and bend the blade 90 degrees without it breaking. Mine won't do that. At least I don't think they would--I have never tried it.
I guess they think there is an advantage in having a blade that will bend 90 degrees without breaking, but I don't know what that advantage would be.
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#2298843 - 07/08/08 02:46 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: 1234567]
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Suicycle
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The bending of a blade is for ABS Journeyman Performance test. The knife is prupose built to show that you can differential heat treat the steel. The knife flexes after chopping through two 2X4's and cutting a 1" free hanging manilla rope. They cannot chip or crack at all. They also cannot have any edge deformation from the cutting = still shaving sharp. All knives are not desirable at that degree of flexibility. 1234567 if you don't know it yet, your knives will break if you bend them. All the premium stainless knives out there and D2 are air hardening steels, they are through hardened.
The micro serrations are not the different layers of the steel either. That is carbides that are in the steel. It all has to do with carbon becoming soluable in the steel before the quench, and grain structure.
Master Bladesmiths go through the whole process of performance testing with damascus and then submitting 5 blades to be evaluated for their status.
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#2298944 - 07/08/08 03:35 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: Suicycle]
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Boise
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1234567 - thank you for the long informative post. I think I understand.
BTW, I was camping last weekend and took an inventory of my cutting tools: two pocket knives, caping knife, two leatherman, large camp knife, REALLY large camp knife, hatchet, an axe, and a chainsaw. I think I'm get'n the hang of this.
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#2300432 - 07/09/08 09:42 AM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: Boise]
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1234567
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Yes, I know my knives will break if they are bent. Actually, they won't bend. They break first.
I have a two piece blade. It was originally a one piece blade, but the owner's wife tried to use it to pry nails out of a tree.
Any type of steel at Rc 60 and higher is not going to be very springy.
On the differential hardened blades, I don't understand why the hard cutting edge does crack when the knife is bent. Although the spine of the blade might be softer and more flexable, the cutting is still very hard.
Some hacksaw blades are differential hardened, and I have bent them and the edge with the teeth would crack, although the back of the blade would bend.
"The micro serrations are not the different layers of the steel either."
I have never made a damascus blade, but I have read about them, and the process for making them. One of the often repeated advantages for cutting ability was the micro serrations due to the several hundred layers of steel.
All heat treated blades have carbides, including heat treated damascus steel. Some carbides, like vanadium carbides, have a higher wear resistance than others, for instance chromium carbides.
I don't think the presence of carbides alone would account for the micro serrations claimed for damascus steel.
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#2300452 - 07/09/08 09:50 AM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: 1234567]
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1234567
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Boise:
When I wrote the long explanation about the advantages of flexibility, I had in mind knives of the type that would be or could be classified as survival knives, or general purpose knives, even machetes and swords, and knives that would be larger than what you would need or use for normal field dressing.
For field dressing game animals, I doubt there would be a need for a flexible blade, unless you were trying to work the blade through the pelvic joint or leg joints, and a saw or axe would be better for these chores.
I have never filleted a fish, but I can understand why a filleting and boning blade would need to be thin and flexible.
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#2306100 - 07/11/08 10:57 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: 1234567]
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MontanaCreekHunter
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One advantage I have heard of with damascus steels, and also differential tempered and forged carbon steel blades, but never tested, is that they are more flexible than a stock removal type blade that is the same hardness all the way from edge to back.
That statement is completely wrong. Forged and stock removal blades can both be differential tempered. There are a few blade makers out there that use the stock removal method and differential temper the blades as you can tell by the harmon line.
As stated by another poster in a hunting/fishing knife there really isn't a need for it. The need arises in fighting knives and swords mostly but not limited to. If you use the right tool for the job there is zero need for your hunting blade to be able to bend 90 degrees in a vise.
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#2307386 - 07/12/08 05:21 PM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
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1234567
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"That statement is completely wrong."
What is wrong about it, that a differential tempered blade is not more flexible than a blade tempered all the way through? That is not what I said.
I said that a differntial hardened blade is more flexable than one hardened all the way through, but that I have never tested it. Is that wrong?
You can, or could, differential harden a blade made from carbon steel, either forged or stock removal. You can't do it with some of the high tech stainless and high speed and die and bearing steels that have to be heat treated in a controled atmosphere furnace, especially those that are air hardening and require two or three temperings.
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#2308023 - 07/13/08 02:45 AM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: 1234567]
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MontanaCreekHunter
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What is wrong is the way you stated it. In your statement you compared two blades that were damascus and forged to a blade that was stock removal. Then stated that the first two blades were differential heat treated and the stock removal was not. If you are going to compare then compare like items. The way you stated it a guy or gal that didn't know about the subject would think that a stock removal blade can not be differentially heat treated. Which it can be.
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#2308024 - 07/13/08 02:52 AM
Re: Damascus; Performance or just cosmetic?
[Re: 1234567]
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MontanaCreekHunter
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One advantage I have heard of with damascus steels, and also differential tempered and forged carbon steel blades, but never tested, is that they are more flexible than a stock removal type blade that is the same hardness all the way from edge to back.
This statement would be true in reverse as well. A stock removal blade that is differentially heat treated would be move flexible then a forged or damascus blade that was heat treated the same hardness all the way from edge to back.
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