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#2290559 - 07/03/08 04:12 PM The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia
hillbillybear
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031611/Sharia-law-SHOULD-used-Britain-says-UKs-judge.html#
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The Brits have gone ape. The slide down the slippery slope continues.




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Last updated at 8:07 PM on 03rd July 2008

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Lord Phillips

Explosive: The Lord Chief Justice's endorsement of Sharia law has already created huge controversy

The most senior judge in England tonight gave his blessing to the use of sharia law to resolve disputes among Muslims.

Lord Chief Justice Lord Phillips said that Islamic legal principles could be employed to deal with family and marital arguments and to regulate finance.

He declared: 'It is possible in this country for those who are entering into a contractual agreement to agree that the agreement shall be governed by a law other than English law.'

In his speech in an East London mosque Lord Phillips signalled approval of sharia principles as a means of settling disputes so long as no punishments that conflict with the established law are involved, and as long as divorces are made to comply with the civil law.

But his remarks - which give the green light from the highest judicial office to the informal sharia courts already operated by numerous mosques - provoked a storm of criticism.

Lawyers warned that family and marital disputes settled by sharia could leave women or vulnerable people at a serious disadvantage.

Tories said that equality under the law must be respected and warned that outcomes incompatible with English law should never be enforceable.

Lord Phillips spoke five months after Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams surrounded himself in controversy with a lecture in which he suggested Islamic law could have official status and that it could govern marital law, financial transactions and arbitration in disputes.

The Lord Chief Justice said today of the Archbishop's views: 'It was not very radical to advocate embracing sharia law in the context of family disputes.'

He added that there was 'widespread misunderstanding as to the nature of sharia law'.

Lord Phillips said: 'Those who in this country are in dispute as to their respective rights are free to subject that dispute to the mediation of a chosen person, or to agree that the dispute shall be resolved by a chosen arbitrator.

'There is no reason why principles of sharia law or any other religious code should not be the basis for mediation or other forms of alternative dispute resolution.'

Lord Phillips said that any sanctions must be 'drawn from the laws of England and Wales'. Severe physical punishment - he mentioned stoning, flogging or the cutting off of hands - was 'out of the question' in Britain, he said.

'So far as aspects of matrimonial law are concerned, there is a limited precedent for English law to recognise aspects of religious laws, although when it comes to divorce this can only be effected in accordance with the civil law of this country,' he said.

sharia law

The Sharia Council of Britain: (from right to left) Dr Suhaib Hasan, Maulana Abu Sayeed and Mr Mufti Barabatullah preside over marriage cases at their headquarters earlier this year

The signal of approval for voluntary sharia tribunals brought protests from lawyers who fear that in some Islamic communities women do not have a full and equal say and that they could be disadvantaged in supposedly voluntary sharia arrangements.

Barrister and human rights specialist John Cooper said: 'There should be one law by which everyone is held to account.

'I have considerable concerns that well-crafted and carefully designed laws in this country, drawn up to protect both parties including the weak and vulnerable party in matrimonial break-ups could be compromised.

'I have concerns over a system of law that may cause one party to be disadvantaged.'

Resolution, the organisation of family law solicitors, said people should govern their lives in accordance with religious principles 'provided that those beliefs and traditions do not contradict the fundamental principle of equality on which this country’s laws are based.'

Spokesman Teresa Richardson said religious law 'must be used to find solutions which are consistent with the basic principles of family law in this country and people must always have redress to the civil courts where they so choose.'

Robert Whelan of the Civitas think tank said: 'Everybody is governed by English law and it is not possible to sign away your legal rights.
Rowan Williams

Under fire: The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams. His comments on Sharia sparked a political storm

'That is why guarantees on consumer products always have to tell customers their statutory rights are not affected.

'There is not much doubt that in traditional Islamic communities women do not enjoy the freedoms that women in this country have had for 100 years or more.

'It is very easy to put pressure on young women in a male-dominated household.

'The English law stands to protect people from intimidation in such circumstances.'

Tories warned that principles of equality under the law must be respected.

Shadow Home Secretary Dominic Grieve said: 'The Lord Chief Justice correctly points out that there is a tradition in this country of allowing mediation to take place subject to other legal principles as long as it is voluntary and not subject to coercion, and with outcomes which are not fundamentally incompatible with our own legal principles.

'Any that are incompatible cannot and should never be enforceable.

'One of the key aspects of our free society in Britain is equality under our own laws. It is important that this should be understood and respected by all in our country.'

A spokesman for Jack Straw's Ministry of Justice said: 'English law, which is based on our shared values of equality and a respect for the rule of law, takes precedence over any other legal system.

'The Government has no intention of changing this position. Alongside this it is possible for other dispute resolution systems on matters of civil law to be accommodated, so long as they are not in conflict with the laws of England and Wales and are abided by on a voluntary basis.'

BRIEFING: SHARIA LAW

* Sharia law is based on the Koran, on associated teaching about the life of the Prophet Mohammed, and on the judgements of Islamic clerics and lawyers down the centuries.
* It is in essence a set of religious principles by which Muslims are required to live. Sharia is interpreted and enforced differently in different countries across the Islamic world.
* Islamic law is often regarded as having four parts: how Muslims should worship; commerce; crime and punishment; and marriage and divorce.
* Sharia says forbidden behaviour, like drinking alcohol and taking drugs, or adultery, should be punished. Islamic scholars say the Koran sets down punishments such as lashes or stoning for adultery.
* Sharia law also permits behaviour not allowed by English law, for examply polygamy, which in some jurisdictions says men may have up to four wives.
* In Britain, sharia courts are often operated by mosques. Muslim families come to sharia courts for justice and agree to be bound by their rulings.
* They have no formal legal status.
* There are around 1.6 million British Muslims, most of whom are of Pakistani origin. The strongest Muslim communities are in London, especially in the East London borough of Tower Hamlets where Lord Phillips spoke yesterday, Birmingham, Yorkshire and Lancashire.
* Orthodox Jews operate Beth Din courts which are subordinate to the civil law and which decide issues among 180,000 people according to ancient Jewish law. They are regulated by the Chief Rabbi. A divorcing Jewish couple first divorce in the civil courts, then come to the Beth Din tribunals for religious judgement.
* The only religious courts in England with full and official legal status are the consistory courts and tribunals which decide disputes and disciplinary matters in the Church of England.




Edited by hillbillybear (07/03/08 04:14 PM)
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#2290576 - 07/03/08 04:26 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: hillbillybear]
Cossatotjoe
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In the strictest legal sense, he is right. In England, as here, one can include a choice of law provision in almost every contract whereby the parties agree to litigate any dispute by the laws of a certain jurisdiction.
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#2290581 - 07/03/08 04:30 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Cossatotjoe]
ConradNY
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So how can people use sharia law when it has not been passed by the English house of commons ? It makes not sense to me.
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#2290643 - 07/03/08 05:17 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Cossatotjoe]
Steve_NO
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Joe, sure you can stipulate almost any law you want in a commercial contract, but the law of persons is usually determined by their domicile.

And stipulating a law other than that which would otherwise apply requires knowledge and consent and disclosure, none of which apply to a domestic dispute....unless there is some signed prenup stipulation...which would be overreaching anyway unless you got the wife a lawyer. Can they even meet with lawyers they're not related to?

chalk this up to fear...nothing more....the brits are giving in for the same reason papers didn't publish the Mohammed cartoons.

You think for a moment the papers wouldn't have published, or this judge would have said anything like this, if the religion in question was ....oh, Quakers or something. No freaking way.
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#2290647 - 07/03/08 05:21 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: ConradNY]
BCBrian
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The Brit's lost their collective minds years ago - it's why they are coming to Canada in droves.

My best bud locally is a Brit. He's from Birmingham - where his Dad still lives. He said a few years back they reached the breaking point over there when a local ordinance was passed banning exterior Christmas ornaments - due to the fact it was considered "offensive" to the many local Muslims.

Sad, but true.

They could arrest me and jail me indefinitely before I'd give into a law like that. Too bad more Brit's didn't feel that way...
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#2290657 - 07/03/08 05:26 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: BCBrian]
BCBrian
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On a related note Canadian justice made it's decision - the way I predicted months ago when this issue was posted here.

Read on;

Human rights complaint against Maclean's dismissed
Updated Sat. Jun. 28 2008 4:40 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

The Canadian Human Rights Commission has dismissed a Muslim group's complaint against Maclean's magazine.

The Canadian Islamic Congress had argued the magazine published an article in October 2006 that would likely expose Muslims to hatred and contempt.

The article, entitled "The Future Belongs to Islam," by Mark Steyn claimed that Muslims are on the verge of dominating Europe and the West because of a demographic shift.

The article claims that their greater numbers will eventually allow Muslims to dominate Western countries. The article goes so far as to quote a European imam who allegedly said Muslims are reproducing like "mosquitoes."

While commentators have said Steyn's demographic claims are way off-base, the CHRC concluded the views in the article, "when considered as a whole and in context, are not of an extreme nature, as defined by the Supreme Court."

Therefore, the Commission said there is no reason to warrant the appointment of a tribunal to look into the matter. In its four page decision, the Commission noted Steyn's "writing is polemical, colourful and emphatic, and was obviously calculated to excite discussion and even offend certain readers, Muslim and non-Muslim alike."

Faisal Joseph, a lawyer for the Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC), said he disagreed with the commission's finding. He said there was "compelling evidence of hate and expert testimony" to support their case, had it been allowed to move forward.

The complainants have argued that Maclean's forced them to act because the magazine wouldn't print their response. They want the magazine to publish a counterpoint.

They've also filed a similar complaint with the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal, which finished hearing the case earlier this month, but has yet to make a ruling. The Ontario Human Rights Commission has said it does not have the jurisdiction to hear a similar case.

On its website, Maclean's released a statement noting satisfaction with the CHRC decision.

"Though gratified by the decision, Maclean's continues to assert that no human rights commission, whether at the federal or provincial level, has the mandate or the expertise to monitor, inquire into, or assess the editorial decisions of the nation's media," said the statement.

"And we continue to have grave concerns about a system of complaint and adjudication that allows a media outlet to be pursued in multiple jurisdictions on the same complaint, brought by the same complainants."

Steyn and others -- including editors at Maclean's -- have said the issue is not the article's merits or its viewpoint. They are concerned that such human rights tribunals could suppress free speech
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#2290662 - 07/03/08 05:29 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Steve_NO]
Cossatotjoe
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Well, I think this is much ado about nothing, at least regarding his quotes. You notice that he said they could do it with divorces, provided they met English civil standards. Well, how do you do that? You go to court and get a divorce, of course.

Probably what will happen is that the divorce will be granted in an English court and the property disputes, custody arrangements, and whatever that were previously decided by Sharia law will be incorporated as if by agreement. Much like custody and property mediations or arbitrations are incorporated into divorces in the United States.

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#2290672 - 07/03/08 05:35 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Cossatotjoe]
Steve_NO
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How are you ever going to prove, though, that the poor woman imprisoned by her husband in that burka consented to be screwed by Islamic law instead of having the protecton of the Crown statutes?


Can you imagine, for example radical LDSers getting away with that, in England or anywhere else?

Of course, Mormons don't saw heads off either, so who's scared of making them mad/
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#2290682 - 07/03/08 05:40 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Cossatotjoe]
Blaine
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 Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe
In the strictest legal sense, he is right. In England, as here, one can include a choice of law provision in almost every contract whereby the parties agree to litigate any dispute by the laws of a certain jurisdiction.


Astoundingly, I agree with Joe. HOAs here in the states do basically the same thing. People "agree" to follow certain legally enforcable rules and restrictions that are different that city, state, county, or national law.
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#2290686 - 07/03/08 05:42 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Steve_NO]
Cossatotjoe
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Well, I assume that they do divorces by agreement in England like they do here? How are you going to prove that the poor Moslem woman EVER actually agreed to something or was instead, intimidated into doing it?

And besides, if the woman does step up to the plate, and hire a lawyer, I saw nothing the Lord Chief Justice's statement that would suggest that Sharia would apply even if she didn't agree.

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#2290721 - 07/03/08 06:01 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Cossatotjoe]
Pete E
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There has been a similar provision here for the Jewish community based on their laws for years..

This is basically an "arbitration service" nothing more...It doesn't replace any British criminal law as such...For things like divorce, they two codes will run side by side...So you will have the actual divorce done in the ordinary courts and then if both party's choose, the "rest" of the divorce such as custody agreements, division of goods ect will be handled under Muslim or Jewish law...
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#2290783 - 07/03/08 06:37 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Pete E]
stevelyn
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Why did we sacrifice good men to save their sorry asses during two wars?

The bastids should be speaking German.
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#2290837 - 07/03/08 07:06 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: hillbillybear]
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Aren't you happy that we Americas had a revolution????

I am.
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#2291283 - 07/04/08 03:01 AM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: derby_dude]
Pete E
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stevelyn

History not your strong point?

In WW1, at no point did the Germans ever come even close to even thinking of invading the UK and the US turned up to the war for about the last 6 months!

In WW2, the Battle of Britain was won before either America (or Russia for that matter) had even entered the war!


I bet your even in denial about the gooks kicking your ass in Vietnam!

So many American look to Hollywood for their History lessons!


Edited by Pete E (07/04/08 03:04 AM)
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#2291402 - 07/04/08 05:21 AM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Pete E]
tjm10025
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 Originally Posted By: Pete E
In WW2, the Battle of Britain was won before either America (or Russia for that matter) had even entered the war!


Pete:

So you had Hitler on the ropes in early '41, eh? \:\)

- Tom
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#2291631 - 07/04/08 07:48 AM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Pete E]
derby_dude
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 Originally Posted By: Pete E
stevelyn

History not your strong point?

In WW1, at no point did the Germans ever come even close to even thinking of invading the UK and the US turned up to the war for about the last 6 months!

In WW2, the Battle of Britain was won before either America (or Russia for that matter) had even entered the war!


I bet your even in denial about the gooks kicking your ass in Vietnam!

So many American look to Hollywood for their History lessons!


Feel beter now!!!! \:\)
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#2291826 - 07/04/08 09:23 AM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: tjm10025]
Steve_NO
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 Originally Posted By: tjm10025

 Originally Posted By: Pete E
In WW2, the Battle of Britain was won before either America (or Russia for that matter) had even entered the war!


Pete:

So you had Hitler on the ropes in early '41, eh? \:\)

- Tom



Yeah, they had him trapped on the Continent, surrounded by the Royal Navy. ;\)
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#2292014 - 07/04/08 10:55 AM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Pete E]
RickyD
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 Quote:
In WW2, the Battle of Britain was won before either America (or Russia for that matter) had even entered the war!
Half your pilots were American volunteers by the time America offcially declared war on Germany. Maybe you forgot that.

 Quote:
I bet your even in denial about the gooks kicking your ass in Vietnam!
VietNam was a unique war in that the USA won every battle but lost the war. The NVA or Viet Cong did not beat us, our liberal media did. I hope Iraq and Afganistan will not be a repeat of that.

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#2292171 - 07/04/08 12:24 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Pete E]
Calhoun
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 Originally Posted By: Pete E
stevelyn

History not your strong point?

In WW1, at no point did the Germans ever come even close to even thinking of invading the UK and the US turned up to the war for about the last 6 months!

In WW2, the Battle of Britain was won before either America (or Russia for that matter) had even entered the war!


I bet your even in denial about the gooks kicking your ass in Vietnam!

So many American look to Hollywood for their History lessons!


Wow, we only lost 116,000 troops helping them out in WWI, not to mention the munitions and supplies sent over, and this this the appreciation we get? At least Americans acknowledge the help we got from the French in whooping the Redcoat's butts, must be nice to be omnipowerful in your own mind.

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#2292589 - 07/04/08 05:50 PM Re: The Brits Have Lost Their Minds: Lord Chief Justices Embraces Sharia [Re: Calhoun]
ConradNY
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There is no doubt that the UK was on the ropes and would not have been able to win WWII without the help of the USA.
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