#2371069 - 08/14/08 06:50 PM
How far out is too far for my new Brittany
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DakotaDeer
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How far out is a Brittany "supposed" to work when looking for pheasants?
I don't want to restrict her unnecessarily, but I detest a dog that gets too far out and bumps birds often. These will be wild, public land pheasants, and they don't sit still all that well.
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#2379311 - 08/19/08 01:58 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: DakotaDeer]
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DakotaDeer
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#2379733 - 08/19/08 06:22 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: DakotaDeer]
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DaddyRat
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Loc: Weaverville NC
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How far out is entirely up to you. I would try to keep the dog close enough that if a bird did not hold I might get a long shot at it. If your dog understands the command "Here" if it gets to far out call it to you. After awhile, it will get the idea about how far out YOU want it to go.
If that does not work, put a 20 foot heavy rope on it and use it to control the dog. You may not be able to catch the dog but you can catch the rope.
Couple of questions? Are you doing the yardwork to help the dog understand what you want? Have you trained a brittany before?
Brittanies need a gentle hand, they want to please you and are highly intelligent dogs. They are easy to train. I have trained 2 and am currently training my 3rd. He is a real good dog and is already understanding "Here", "Sit", "Find it", and "Give". He is pointing and retreiving to hand for me and my 7 year old. The dog is 4 months old and I have had him less than a week. He was not worked with before. PM if I can help you further.
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#2380232 - 08/19/08 10:40 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: DaddyRat]
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toltecgriz
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If you don't let a Brittany get out and hunt, you should have gotten a flushing dog, IMHO. Specific distance depends a lot on cover.
if you hunt the dog enough he'll tell you what works and what doesn't. Then you can adjust if you've taught him (or her) to respond to what you want.
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"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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#2380421 - 08/20/08 06:02 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: toltecgriz]
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battue
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I don't hunt pointers-personally have flushers-but hunt with friends who do. That being said if the dog does what he is suppossed to do i.e. point and hold birds for you to walk up and shoot, what difference does it make within reason how far out the dog is. I've hunted ruffed grouse with an English pointer whose normal range was between 75 to 100yd. That dog was good and knew how to hold his birds. Beeper went off and we went to the dog. Sure he would check in with us so all were on the same page but that dog was out there as far as ruffed grouse.
To me nothing worse than a "good" pointer that has some legs and a hunter who is hacking him in because they are afraid they will not get a shot. And if most would admit it that is the worry. Ruins the hunt and the dog.
Give a dog a chance to do his thing. If any want a pointing dog to stay withen 20-30yards, they probably should not be hunting pointers.
Battue
P.S. DakotaDeer: There is a difference between a dog that "bumps" birds and one that "holds" their birds and range usually has nothing to do with it. The one is essentially a flusher no matter the breed the other a pointer.
Also if any plan to shoot at every bird that gets up in front of their pointer regardless if it was pointed or not-why have a pointer? Finished pointers take a lot of work-on both the owner and the dog.
Edited by battue (08/20/08 06:42 AM)
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#2381730 - 08/20/08 04:36 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: battue]
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toltecgriz
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I'll add this. It's a lot easier to bring a dog in than it is to push it out in terms of training.
Either way flusher or pointer, if you're concerned about bumping, you probably should train steady to wing or shot, whatever your preference.
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"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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#2385220 - 08/22/08 09:55 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: toltecgriz]
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DakotaDeer
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Thanks for all the great advice. We were given a 4-year old neglected and untrained Brittany female, so I want to give her a fair chance at being successful. We were actually in the process of looking for a Springer, but this Britt kind of tugged the heart strings so to speak.
I've always hunted behind a flushing dog, but a few times with GSPs.
The GSPs have always been "shocked" into submission just as they were ranging out and about to find birds. I don't want to restrict my dog like that, but it drives me nuts when somebody's crazy Lab runs wild and the birds all go up a half mile away.
I need some advice as to how to "slide" my Britt into finding birds but staying close enough that she and I both enjoy the hunt. I've never yet had her in the field, so maybe she'll be fine anyway. I plan to get out there pretty quick on a check cord and see how she acts about it all. The basic obedience commands in the yard are coming along fine, and I take her running on a leash and she has figured that out pretty well also.
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#2385229 - 08/22/08 09:59 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: battue]
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DakotaDeer
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There is a difference between a dog that "bumps" birds and one that "holds" their birds and range usually has nothing to do with it. The one is essentially a flusher no matter the breed the other a pointer.
Also if any plan to shoot at every bird that gets up in front of their pointer regardless if it was pointed or not-why have a pointer? Finished pointers take a lot of work-on both the owner and the dog.
OK, here's a question that is probably anathema to any pointer guys, but oh well, I just want birds in the bag: IF my Britt seems to flush them most of the time, whether by accident or on purpose, should I just treat her as a flusher and train her to do it well?
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#2388137 - 08/23/08 07:49 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: DakotaDeer]
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prairie dog shooter
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All my pointers and brits were trained to hunt within sight of me. We hunted bobwhite quail.
You need to decide if you want that dog to flush or point. Otherwise you are going to have a very confused dog.
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#2391830 - 08/25/08 04:57 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: prairie dog shooter]
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MILES58
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Registered: 02/20/08
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If your dog is honest on it's game, range is completely irrelevant. I couldn't begin to count how many times I've gone to a dog on point half a mile or more out. And, that's in the grouse woods. As long as the dog is hunting and not passing birds making that dog come back in and show you it's still a dog and hasn't changed into something else is just just damn foolishness, let the dog hunt. That's what you have it for. If you think you know better about finding birds than the dog, give the dog away to someone else and go hunting without a dog.
How far doesn't mean squat! Steady on game, hunting hard and not passing birds, covering the cover that's available to it. Those are the things a dog is for. If you try to place an arbitrary restriction that's really an abstraction the dog can't understand on the dog the only thing you will for sure do is to make it into a less useful dog.
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#2392304 - 08/25/08 07:13 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: DakotaDeer]
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battue
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There is a difference between a dog that "bumps" birds and one that "holds" their birds and range usually has nothing to do with it. The one is essentially a flusher no matter the breed the other a pointer.
Also if any plan to shoot at every bird that gets up in front of their pointer regardless if it was pointed or not-why have a pointer? Finished pointers take a lot of work-on both the owner and the dog. OK, here's a question that is probably anathema to any pointer guys, but oh well, I just want birds in the bag: IF my Britt seems to flush them most of the time, whether by accident or on purpose, should I just treat her as a flusher and train her to do it well?
Dakota Deer: Boy you just turned the pot over.
Sounds like you want a pure meat dog-and by dam there is nothing wrong with that-but you are the one that has to decide. Best pheasant dog I EVER hunted over was a beagle. Was not much on the retreiving but would wait by the bird for you to get there.
However, once you get past the point that it's ok for a bird to get away, your standards for hunting them will also change.
See there is a circle when hunting with a bird dog. Dog-bird-hunter. When that all comes together it is like magic.
Since it sounds like you live close to great pheasant hunting try to find some true bird dog people and see if you can tag along and see what great dog work is.
Also don't expect more of your Brittany than it can give you. A dog is just like us, most do close to the best they can. Some have more brains, ability, desire and oppourtunity than others.
Good luck on your journey. Treat your dogs kindly.
Battue
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laissez les bons temps rouler
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#2392375 - 08/25/08 07:35 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: battue]
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MILES58
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"However, once you get past the point that it's ok for a bird to get away, your standards for hunting them will also change.
See there is a circle when hunting with a bird dog. Dog-bird-hunter. When that all comes together it is like magic.
Since it sounds like you live close to great pheasant hunting try to find some true bird dog people and see if you can tag along and see what great dog work is.
Also don't expect more of your Brittany than it can give you. A dog is just like us, most do close to the best they can. Some have more brains, ability, desire and oppourtunity than others."
Very well put. The only thing I'd add is that the goal of the training process needs to be bringing the dog through to the end while taking as little as possible of it ultimate abilities away from it. Give the dog all the opportunities it needs, it's how it learns.
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#2393067 - 08/26/08 07:12 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: DakotaDeer]
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Planemech
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A few things right off, the distances you hear people sat their dogs run are usually lies. There are some here that need distance recognition training. A half mile is 880 yards and takes the average man 10 minutes to walk baring cover and terrain. A beeoper collar let alone a bell as often used in Ruff Grouse hunting cannot be heard at that distance without cover.
Brittany's are not considered big running pointing dogs to begin with. You were looking at a flusher so the Brit may look like a big runner, it probably isn't in pointing dog terms. 400-500 yards is a big running pointing dog, that's 1/4 mile casts. or 5 minutes walk to a point. Far more common is the 100-150 yard dog. Most think that's 250 though. 
The key is how the dog handles the birds, in particular pheasants as that seems to be your target species. A good quail dog or grouse dog doesn't automatically make a good pheasant dog. First and foremost pheasants run far more often than quail or ruff grouse. (not including blue/scaled quail which are some running little bastards) Pheasants will also not just sit forever under a point, they will slink away from a dog. The more pressure a pheasant has had the more likely it is to run. So the manners a dog has make a big difference.
I would recommend "Gun Dog" written by Richard Wolters. It's a pretty easy method that will train both you and the dog to be on the same page. It is important that the dog run under control. This means if you desire it to do something you can give it a command, voice, hand or whistle and the dog can respond. If it's so far out it cannot hear or see your commands it's out of control and hunting for itself. Thus a 1/2 mile ruff grouse dog is out of control as the dog cannot be seen through 1/2 mile of ruff grouse cover. On the prairies if effective dog-hunter communication can be had 800 yards is possible, though not a realistic goal. (even more so given you want to hunt wild, pressured pheasants)
Get the Wolters book, understand the training and actions/commands of a pointing dog. Get the dog to obey you first and foremost. Second get the pointing instincts sharp, get the manners down, steady to wing and/or shot as you determine. Then work the dog on planted birds, pigeons work fine at first, then quail the wild birds to include pheasants. The basics, sit/heel come are important, very, very important and then the most important command for a pointing dog- whoa!
You must let the dog do it's work, with as little jabbering or whistling as possible. Hunting behind a good pointing dog is a thing of joy, there is not better way to spend a day IMHO. A day, heck an hour behind an ill mannered dog with poor bird skills is pure torture.
There are bound to be preserves and trial clubs in your area, breed clubs can be a real resource too. Get with these clubs and get a source of birds, a training ground and some local help. Train hard and train consistent it will make your days afield far better.
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#2393216 - 08/26/08 08:19 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: Planemech]
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MILES58
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Registered: 02/20/08
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Planemech,
I don't know about you, but I have run my share of competitive All Age trial dogs in the grouse woods. I mean open country dogs, not grouse trial dogs. A half mile in the grouse woods I hunt in is like as not a half hour walk and can be more. While I can't hear them anymore that far, the very first time I ever heard a beeper on point was in the St Croix river valley in a recently surveyed location back in '79. That was a couple hundred yards past 1/2 mile and 350 feet in elevation above where I started. Not seeing one of my dogs for an hour or more is no big deal as long as I can hear them.
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#2393252 - 08/26/08 08:37 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: MILES58]
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Planemech
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I grew up in Michigan and am well aware of what grouse woods are. I live on the prairies in Nebraska now and am well aware of just how far 1/2 mile is and how far one can hear or command a dog. I hunt with some trialers so I'm aware of just how big AA pointers run. I never said AA dogs cannot hunt grouse, or that any breed, trial format trained or kennel is better or worse than any other. What I did say was that for hunting a dog that is unable to take commands from you is out of control. I'll stand by that statement. Boot polisher or AA dog.
People will almost always believe their wing shot and their dog was farther away than it really was. In all honesty there are no 1/2 hour walks to approach a pointed wild rooster, unless of course it's dead. Some birds will hold longer than other, Bobwhites, wild and especially the planted, dizzy, wing tucked trial ones. Some grouse will hold quite some time too. I have seen the "medium" range dogs prove "better" pheasant dogs so many times it's not funny. Every now and then such 1/2 mile finds result in walks and productive points. Far more often they do not.
Hunting behind a trained dog is better than none, even if it is a lab. lol.
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#2393482 - 08/26/08 10:50 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: Planemech]
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battue
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DakotaDeer is just beginning his bird dog journey. Don't think he is ready for or will benefit from this debate from those who have seen most all of it.
We should be directing our comments towards helping him and not proving to each other what we know.
Battue
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#2395255 - 08/27/08 04:48 AM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: battue]
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Planemech
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Yes indeed Battue, you should have read my first post and the advice to get the Wolters book and to train himself and the dog in basic pointing dog things. Notice I mention no specific breed, ranges or absolutes. I mentioned breed clubs and trial clubs as sources of great help and advise. Finally I told him the truth about most people doubling the range things happened at like shots and dogs working birds.
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#2396997 - 08/27/08 07:41 PM
Re: How far out is too far for my new Brittany
[Re: Planemech]
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prairie dog shooter
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I like Wolters methods as well. IMO a dog that hunts out of sight is hunting for it's self, not the gunner.
I call such dogs "Wonder Dogs". (As in; I wonder where that damn dog is now?)
I hunted birds from foot. I have never followed them on horse back or from jeeps and never needed bells or beepers to locate a dog on point. If I ever lost sight of one of my dogs I would walk over to where I had last seen it and the dog would be there locked down on point.
There is a big difference between pointing dogs trained to hunt for a hunter on foot and a dog trained to hunt coveys for hunters following on a vehicle. I have seen those differences in the various bloodlines of English Pointers. You won't be happy with a dog that doesn't match your hunting style.
Here is my favorite Brittany.
My favorite English Pointer and the best pointing dog I ever hunted behind. This dog was out of Riggins White Knight / Gun Smoke blood lines.
This was a good dog as well. She wasn't the prettiest dog in the kennel but she was a bird hunting machine!
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