#2391781 - 08/25/08 04:28 PM
My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
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CZ550
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Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
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Yes, it's absolutely true! For the Barnes Original it's 3.8",
the 350 TSX is 3.44"
the 450 TSX is 3.69"
the 450 BND Solid is 3.55"
the 500 TSX is 3.75" (same as the 460 WBY)
the 500 BND Solid is 3.67"
All equaling or exceeding the 458 Lott and some loads attaining the 460 Wby in COAL.
The inside measurement of the magazine is 3.855" and the throating will accomodate that. All of the new generation of Barnes bullets can be crimped into one of the "grooves" and the 600-gr has a very long shank that allows a COAL of 3.8". Now what could I do with all that? Maybe rechamber to 460 WBY, since the same action is also reamed for the 416 Rigby?
Nah... I think I'll leave it be, but it sure is tempting! Thought someone out there might want to know these tidbits.  What would you do?
That's in a CZ550 action, of course.
Edited by CZ550 (08/25/08 05:20 PM)
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#2392026 - 08/25/08 05:58 PM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: CZ550]
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jkingrph
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 58
Loc: E. Texas, N. Louisiana
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Seat bullets way out and use 458 Lott loads if you like.
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#2392752 - 08/26/08 12:29 AM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: jkingrph]
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86thecat
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 191
Loc: Central WA
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I looked at some reamer diagrams a while back and if they were correct it looked like the Win Mag has a longer throat than the Lott. Just wondering if the Lott can be loaded out to 458 - 3 inch length? That would drop pressure even more while leaving enough bullet in the case. Are the latest CZ Lotts still recut WM's or cut with a proper Lott reamer?
CZ550,
You're crimping the 350 and 450 TSX in the last groove?
Where are your 350 TSX impacting compared to the 450 TSX?
My 350's land about 16 inches higher.
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#2392922 - 08/26/08 06:03 AM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: 86thecat]
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CZ550
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Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
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86thecat;
Good questions. I've talked with several sources: Barnes was able to provide the best information and, also, my local gunsmith friend. It's true, as you say, the throat on the 458 Win is much longer than on the Lott. Apparently, according to an article by Phil Shoemaker, when Hornady had the 458 Lott standardized by SAAMI the "freebore", or throat, was significantly shortened (it was not specified by how much) from Jack Lott's original specs. But I was able to determine that Barne's "freebore" and my friend's (the gunsmith) were about equal. (My friend made a 458 Lott for Terry Wieland about 2 years ago, which was published in RIFLE SHOOTER.)
I have a source at Hornady that I have yet to talk with, he was "out of town", and I'm hoping to officially sort this out, as I wrote in my journal on the 458 (for publication)that the Lott's throat is assumed to be equal, in proportion, to the 458 Win, which is evidently not true. I've also posted that notion on one of these threads. I did mention that was an assumption.
Here are Barnes' (a technician at Barnes)numbers comparing the 458 Win and the Lott with the 500gr Banded Solid crimped into the top groove in each: The 458 Win is .717" off the lands and the 458 Lott is .288" off the lands. That means that measured from the front of the belt (or head)the Win has .129" more "freebore" than the Lott when each is seated to the same COAL. According to my friend, that appears to be correct. We may assume that other bullets seated in both cartridges to the same COAL would have the same relationship to "freebore".
Both my gunsmith friend and the technician at Barnes where very surprised by that outcome. So, it's fairly apparent that this is not common knowledge. I also phoned Hornady and the tech I talked with didn't have that information either, though he gave me the name of the person who deals with SAAMI (whom I have yet to speak with).
The CZ magnum action is the same(I believe)for the 375 H&H; the 416 Rigby; the 458s; the 505 Gibbs et al. So the potential is there to seat bullets to a maximum of about 3.8", which equals the 460 WBY, assuming the chamber is cut to allow that. Mine is.
I have no knowledge, to date, as to what CZ is doing in cutting their chambers for the 458 Win and Lott. That question has motivated me to search it out. I have a source nearby that may be able to help.
Yes, I crimp in the bottom groove of the 350 TSX and that (as mentioned) gives a COAL of 3.44", with still plenty of "freebore". But the accuracy is superb at just over 2700 fps.
I've not tried the 450 TSX yet, but I have a supply of the 450 Xs that have the same length as the TSX (1.513")and are seated to what would equal the first groove on the TSX. A mild load at 2223 fps is very accurate in my rifle and, as you say, their POA is significantly lower than the 350s at 2700+. If they were moving out at near the same MV, say the 450s at 2350 fps and the 350s at 2500 fps, no doubt they would impact near the same POA. That could be useful in Africa when using the 450s for buff, for example, and the 350s for plaines game(I've not tried that). 
Best,
Bob
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#2396367 - 08/27/08 03:08 PM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: CZ550]
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86thecat
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 191
Loc: Central WA
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Thanks,
Here is a link to the reamer drawings I was looking at, click on right side of chamber list.
http://www.mcgowenbarrel.com/barrels.htm
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#2396878 - 08/27/08 06:51 PM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: 86thecat]
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CZ550
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Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
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86thecat,
Thanks; That confirms the numbers my gunsmith friend gave me. But he gave them so fast I couldn't keep up and had no idea exactly what they represented as I didn't have a schematic in front of me. Now it makes sense.
Why the 458 Win has such a long throat I haven't a clue. Nor did the late Finn Aagaard as he complained about it. In the CZ it works out fine because of the true magnum action, but otherwise...
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#2397421 - 08/28/08 05:10 AM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: BMT]
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colorado
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 255
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I noticed the same thing and when I have my CZ 550 rechambered to 470 CapstickI plan to give it a bit of extra freebore to take advantage of the long magazine and action length.
Edited by colorado (08/28/08 05:11 AM)
_________________________
"We deal in lead, friend"
Steve McQueen, "The Magnificent Seven"
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#2398276 - 08/28/08 01:18 PM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: BMT]
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CZ550
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Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
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And I shoot from the left side too!
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#2402464 - 08/30/08 07:33 AM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: CZ550]
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VAnimrod
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Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 27023
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Yes, I crimp in the bottom groove of the 350 TSX and that (as mentioned) gives a COAL of 3.44", with still plenty of "freebore". But the accuracy is superb at just over 2700 fps.
If you can't get it done with that load, you need to call in an air strike.
_________________________
The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms ... the palladium of the liberties of a republic
3 J. Story, Commentaries §1890, p. 746 (1833)
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#2403611 - 08/30/08 11:10 PM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: VAnimrod]
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safariman
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Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 4665
Loc: Walla Walla Washington USA / Z...
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Well said.
As you have noticed, the CZ action is overly long and large for a short magnum cartridge. If it were mine I would re-chamber to .458 Ackley (full length, straight H&H case) and then could use those cases, or 458 Lott or .458Win ammo as the situation dictated. No good reason not to, as I see it.
_________________________
When you are but 50 feet from an animal that can stomp you into mud puddle, or shred you into fajitas, rest assured that he will have your undivided attention! Words of a former safari booking agent, now a happy Africa loving rifle looney!
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#2403854 - 08/31/08 06:38 AM
Re: My CZ550 in 458 Win allows a C.O.A.L. of 3.8 inches!
[Re: safariman]
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colorado
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 255
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I'm having my CZ 550 rechambered/rebored to 470 Capstick in Oct, I plan to ask Clearwater to give me an extra .100" of freebore so my max OAL will be 3.75" instead of the standard 3.65" to take advantage of the extra long magazine.
Chuck
_________________________
"We deal in lead, friend"
Steve McQueen, "The Magnificent Seven"
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