#2479700 - 10/05/08 07:52 PM
338 Federal Loading Issue
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Flyer01
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Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Alberta Canada
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Hello,
I have been loading for a number of calibers since 1979 and have never run into this problem before.
I began loading the 338 Federal this summer, as I'm to cheap to shoot factory ammo, I started with new .308 winchester brass.
This brass necked up to .338 without any issues using new RCBS 338 Federal dies.
However after firing once (Tikka T3) and sized with the same dies I have no neck tension at all. Bullets fall through the neck into the case.
I called the RCBS help desk, they feel it is the .308 brass.
In the past I've necked up 308 to 358, 243 to 7-08, with no problems.
Any solutions ???
Thank You
Tim,
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#2479842 - 10/05/08 09:17 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: Flyer01]
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muledeer
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Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 5227
Loc: Ketchikan, AK, USA
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That sounds like a die problem to me, not a brass problem. Have you measured the expander ball? It may be slightly oversized. Or the neck-sizing part of the die may be oversized, and not squeezing it down enough. Do you know anyone who has a set of .338 Fed dies you could borrow? That could tell you pretty quickly if the problem was with your dies. You might also try some Federal or Remington brass, to see if that made a difference. I loaded my .338 Federal with resized Federal .308 brass until I found a supply of .338 Fed brass, using RCBS dies, and had no sign of a problem.
Good luck...
Dennis
_________________________
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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#2479855 - 10/05/08 09:25 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: Flyer01]
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338Federal
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I've made 338Fed cases from WW, Rem, and Lake City (GI) brass. Never had your problem. I'd bet RCBS booged the sizer die or the expander ball. We'd all be curious to know.
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#2479881 - 10/05/08 09:49 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: 338Federal]
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husqvarna
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Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 579
Loc: Texas Panhandle
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Possibly a brass problem. I know of several cases of Winchester brass causing some strange problems recently.
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#2479885 - 10/05/08 09:52 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: 338Federal]
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DanAdair
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 787
Loc: Flathead County, MT.
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I in fact had exactly the same problem with my 338 Federal dies and WW cases. You're thinning out the necks when you expand them up .030" The WW brass I used mic'd .0120" to .0127" after I sized them up. FC 338 Federal brass mic's .0143 to .015"
Being that I was a machinist in a former life, and I have all manner of mics and gauges that have followed me around for the last 5 years, I gauged the case neck portion of the RCBS die that I have at .364" Which sizes the thicker necked FC brass just enough to hold a bullet with a couple thou. This is a good thing, unless you plan to do what us 5 have done and neck up 308 brass. This way you aren't over working the neck when you size the case. Which increases case life and reduces the amount of run-out you'll see in loaded ammo.
In my case the fix was easy. I had a Redding Type S neck sizing die in 308 that doesn't see much use anymore. So I honed it out to allow the thicker 338 Fed case to go through it without smashing the neck, and ordered a .361" TiN coated bushing. I sized the necked up 308 WW cases in a two step process until I split the necks...
And that was the real reason I quit using necked up COMMERCIAL 308 brass. 62,000 PSI and a neck thats under .014" doesn't last long in the somewhat sloppy chambers in the two 338 Federals I owned (by sloppy, I mean they weren't custom cut "match" chambers) I did get 8 firings though... These days I've been using necked up LC04 military brass, and I've got one batch that is on firing #10 and still going strong. You do need to back down your max loads about a grain with the military brass though. Military brass has a much thicker head construction (like the FC 338 Fed brass) and won't give you that wicked ass pressure ring that you're getting with commercial necked up 308 brass either.
Also worth noting, an attempt to neck down 358 winchester brass resulted in necks that were WAY too thick, and there's no way in hell I'm turning necks for a sporter.
_________________________
My drinking buddies,
Have a hunting problem.
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#2479889 - 10/05/08 09:58 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: DanAdair]
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338Federal
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Registered: 10/16/07
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Are owners of 338-06 and 35Wh reporting the same troubles with current runs of '06 brass when they super-size? Anybody out there that can comment on these?
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#2479899 - 10/05/08 10:07 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: Flyer01]
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kallen
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Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 207
Loc: Northern California
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I think if I understand right he is having the problem after sizing to 338 federal and shooting it out of his gun. Thinking out loud...The cartridge expands under pressure to the size of the chamber, then the die brings the brass back into spec. So it is pointing to that the neck is not getting resized. On the resizing die on the down stroke the decapping rod goes through and pops out the primer, at the end the neck it gets resized, and on the up stroke the decapping rod gets pulled through to set the inside neck diameter.
I pulled out my decapping rod and the diameter is .335; if yours is the same, your brass isn't getting neck sized. Dumb question, but you are full length resizing with the die touching the shell holder? If so, your die should get sent back to RCBS, something didn't get manufactured right.
Like said this will be interesting, can't think at all that it is the brass. All I do is reload win 308 brass
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#2479908 - 10/05/08 10:17 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: 338Federal]
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DanAdair
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 787
Loc: Flathead County, MT.
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Well, if you're a die manufacturer making 338-06 dies, you could reasonably assume that the final customer would be necking up 30-06 brass, and take the thinner necks into account. 35 Whelan brass can be bought OTC, when it's in stock.
I would rather have a die that is built to work the neck as little as possible to achive the right amount of bullet "pull" than one that sizes the neck down .010" too much, just to PULL it back over an expander ball. That is the primary reason that all my "Serious" calibers get loaded on Redding Type S dies. RCBS wants to build dies that make accurate ammo, and they use their own brand of logic to arrive at that goal.
For years it was common knowledge that RCBS 2 die sets had a FL sizer that would leave them a little fat on the back end. The reason they did this was simple, most of their customers were reloading for ONE rifle in that caliber and a partial FL sizing gave better accuracy on the next firing as the case fit the chamber more snuggly. Then they offered "Small Base" dies for anybody shooting that caliber in a semi-auto. No other manufacturer offers a small base sizing die because theirs are held to SAAMI spec (usually half way between min and max) I'm assuming RCBS decided to use the same logic when they brought a 338 Federal die set to the market. It was not my choice in a die set when I bought my first 338 Federal, but it was the only die set available at the time (at least that wasn't 64 bucks.)
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Have a hunting problem.
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#2479920 - 10/05/08 10:26 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: kallen]
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DanAdair
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 787
Loc: Flathead County, MT.
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I think if I understand right he is having the problem after sizing to 338 federal and shooting it out of his gun. Thinking out loud...The cartridge expands under pressure to the size of the chamber, then the die brings the brass back into spec. So it is pointing to that the neck is not getting resized. On the resizing die on the down stroke the decapping rod goes through and pops out the primer, at the end the neck it gets resized, and on the up stroke the decapping rod gets pulled through to set the inside neck diameter.
Right!! You nailed it... Except for one thing... SAAMI spec for a 338 Federal case neck is .0145-.0155" AND WW cases, once they've been necked up are about .003" short of that on each side. It goes bang the first time because (I'm assuming) he's using virgin WW brass that he'd necking up .030". Once it goes bang, and fills the chamber, the neck portion of the size die won't squeeze a 12 and a half thou' case neck back down to .336". If it did, then you'd be working the necks of FC 338 Fed cases too much (thereby shortening case life and creating MORE T.I.R. on loaded rounds) RCBS obviously thought that their market was going to be guys that would re-load 338 Federal brass and not neck up 308 brass...
_________________________
My drinking buddies,
Have a hunting problem.
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#2479923 - 10/05/08 10:27 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: DanAdair]
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338Federal
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Registered: 10/16/07
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I guess I've always assumed that 308Win and 30-06 brass would be the same neck wall thickness, at least from the same manufacturer. And also assume that a company,RCBS in this situation, would probably ream the neck portion of either sizer die (338Fed or 338-06) to the same inside diameter. Should be the same size on the expander ball also.
Just my thinking. Any thoughts?
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#2479949 - 10/05/08 10:57 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: 338Federal]
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DanAdair
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 787
Loc: Flathead County, MT.
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Well... Yeah. Reloading die manufacturers have one hell of a mess in this day and age. You have to build a product that works 100% of the time, that is used in conjuntion with products from many different manufacturers (WW, Remmy, Federal, Laupa, Hornady, Starline, Norma, etc) that all hold their product to their own tolerances and standards, but your end customer wants precision equal to or better than the same end product that he could buy off the shelf (loaded ammo.)
The problem is this. You need to take into account that rifle chambers all vary a little bit, and all brass varies a little bit (in this case we're talking about neck thickness) and the end user's procedures all vary a little bit (do you use Imperial die wax, or Hornady One shot?) So in 90% of the cases that you manufacture a sizing die, you assume the ammo is going into a fairly tight chamber. You assume that the customer is going to use the brass with the thinnest necks, and you assume he's going to use the thinnest lube on the market.
So now say you've got a rifle that's a little longer on headspace than what the die manufacturer assumed, and you're using brass with the thickest necks made. You run a fired case into our sizing die, shove the shoulder back .003" and size the neck down .015" smaller than it needs to be, then tug it back up over the expander ball and stretch it back out to size. When you're all done, you have a batch of loaded rounds that are far from stellar performers on paper at 100 yards...
I can tell you what happened at RCBS when they decided to make dies for the 338 Federal. They realized that there was one company making loaded ammo (Federal) and they held their neck thicknesses to around .015". So their posse thought they would hit this one out of the park, and their customers would be happy too, since they would get really good accuracy with a neck sized just enough to hold a bullet (not overworked and showing a lot of TIR on the run-out gauge)
This is why I use Redding Type S dies in all my serious calibers. I select a bushing that is JUST the right size to give between .0015 to .002" smaller IDs than bullet diameter on my sized brass with NO expander ball used. I rarely get a loaded round using this approach that exceeds .003" TIR (45 out of 50 are usually under .002" TIR) And for some reason, all the ammo I load on these dies goes under MOA (usually well UNDER MOA)
I guess in summary... Expander balls are used on most dies to give the die manufacturers the ability to manufacture a product that can size a wide range of neck thicknesses and then be "pulled out" to the correct diameter. In most cases this results in overworking the brass, which does two things. Shortens case life and increases the amount of run-out of the loaded round. For a certified accuracy geek benchrest shooter (which I am NOT) its a common practice to size the neck of the fired case just enough to hold a bullet in the first place. How straightly that bullet gets its start into the riflings is one BIG factor in the overall accuracy of the system.
I know a few guys that don't even load their own ammo that own a run-out gauge...
_________________________
My drinking buddies,
Have a hunting problem.
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#2497334 - 10/13/08 01:30 PM
Re: 338 Federal Loading Issue
[Re: DanAdair]
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Con
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Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 457
Loc: Australia
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Okay ... somebody please explain this then. I have this exact same issue with both my 35cals ... 358Win and 350RemMag. In the 358Win I've used both opened 308Win cases and Winchester 358Win cases. In the 350RemMag I use only Rem cases. In the 358Win I've used both Lee and Hornady dies. In the 350RemMag only Lee.
No matter which 35 I'm loading for ... if I resize with the expander plug in, the moment I seat to the cannelure the projectile drops in with minor pressure.
My solution has been to resize with no expander plug. I'm kind of interested to see what happens when I get my Lee 35Whelen dies, and I'll be using 30/06 brass opened for that 35cal.
Cheers...
Con
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