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#2609924 - 12/01/08 09:23 AM Re: Back Up [Re: JPK]
Spring Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 102
Loc: SW Georgia
On my first two safaris my PH's both carried a .416. On my hunt last September my PH also had a .416 but would pull out his .577 depending on what were following.

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#2610078 - 12/01/08 10:55 AM Re: Back Up [Re: Spring]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Good! I will let anyone who cares to use a pushfeed rifle..

I personally will never use one for dangerous game again! I have seen them fail every year both for PHs and for clients..and the worst thing about them is they will fail at the worst possible time it seems.....I was chasing buffalo and while ejecting a spent round and loading a new one, it fell out and I snapped it on a bull at very close range, fortunatly a good PH saved my bacon with his double.

I understand a control round can fail, I know a double rifle can fail, mostly because of user failure, bad handloads, etc. it seems, but it is made my man and anything mechanical can fail...

I have never had a "tweeked" control feed rifle fail me..therefore I will continue to use them...

BTW, Finn Aagard and Harry Selby both used mostly control feed guns, and they understood the CFR was the better of the two...Harry used a pushfeed for a short time out of necessity, after he had shot the barrel completely out of his pre 64 Win. Finn had a pushfeed that he liked but he had some Mausers and pre 64s also and preferred them. I have had many a good conversation with them both.

I have no problem with a pushfeed for hunting non dangerous game or varmints..they work just fine..I just like the right tool for the job at hand.



Edited by atkinson (12/01/08 10:59 AM)
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

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#2610566 - 12/01/08 02:35 PM Re: Back Up [Re: atkinsonhunting]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 34119
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Actually Harry Selby bought the push-feed .458 after he shot the barrel out of his .416 Rigby, a Rigby rifle. He sent the Rigby back to England to be rebarreled and by the time the .416 finally came back, he liked the .458 so much he kept using it. Or at least that is the story that Joe Coogan has told me, more than once. Joe worked as a PH for Harry for many years, and knows him very well. He just saw Harry last year.

Of course part of the deal was that Harry could get a realy good chunk of money for the .416, and did, from a former safari client. I got to shoot it a few years ago, and afterward put together a CZ that pretty much matched it. One of the things about Selby's rifle that is rather surprising is that it's built on a standard--not magnum--98 Mauser action, which is supposed to be real no-no. But it has been working fine for thousands of rounds.

I knew Finn fairly well, and in fact have shot all his African back-up rifles. He very much preferred his old .375 M70 above everything, but had nothing against his push-feed M70 either--though from what he said, it was definitely 3rd in line behind his .375 and his Westley Richards .458.

But I'm not arguing about push vs. controlled, just making some observations.
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

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#2612309 - 12/02/08 08:28 AM Re: Back Up [Re: Mule Deer]
Docbill Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 960
For what it is worth. Warren Page used an early (1950 +/-) Rem 721 as the basis for his .375 Weatherby and eventually had it rebarreled 2 or 3 times. It NEVER failed him. Read his 1969 article about it. Ross Seifried used a Rem 700 .416 for years. Both are push feed. Ross thinks it is much ado about nothing.

Both guys have/had a great amount of experience.

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#2612452 - 12/02/08 09:26 AM Re: Back Up [Re: Docbill]
IndyCA35 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 3444
Loc:
 Originally Posted By: docbill
For what it is worth. Warren Page used an early (1950 +/-) Rem 721 as the basis for his .375 Weatherby and eventually had it rebarreled 2 or 3 times. It NEVER failed him. Read his 1969 article about it. Ross Seifried used a Rem 700 .416 for years. Both are push feed. Ross thinks it is much ado about nothing.

Both guys have/had a great amount of experience.


It's obviously much ado about nothing. Why do you think that every military rifle designed since 1903 has been push feed? I have shot High Power with both Model 70 PF and CRF, with M1 Garand (semiauto push feed), and with AR15 (semiauto push feed). In tens of thousands of rounds, I have NEVER had a failure to feed. The only failure to extract I have had was when my non-shooting hand covered the ejection port on an AR15.

In hunting I once had a failure to extract a 30-06 case in an M98 CRF action. The case stayed stuck in the chamber. Hot load? Another time an old Mannlicher with excess headspace caused a case separation, the front part stying in the rifle. Subsequently I had to fire form all my cases for this rifle. No fault of the action in either case. I think that if things are even remotely within tolerance, it does not matter if you use PF or CRF.
_________________________
"I have never understood why it is 'greed' to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take someone else's money." Thomas Sowell

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#2612544 - 12/02/08 10:19 AM Re: Back Up [Re: Mule Deer]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18537
Loc: USA
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Actually Harry Selby bought the push-feed .458 after he shot the barrel out of his .416 Rigby, a Rigby rifle. He sent the Rigby back to England to be rebarreled and by the time the .416 finally came back, he liked the .458 so much he kept using it. Or at least that is the story that Joe Coogan has told me, more than once. Joe worked as a PH for Harry for many years, and knows him very well. He just saw Harry last year.

Of course part of the deal was that Harry could get a realy good chunk of money for the .416, and did, from a former safari client. I got to shoot it a few years ago, and afterward put together a CZ that pretty much matched it. One of the things about Selby's rifle that is rather surprising is that it's built on a standard--not magnum--98 Mauser action, which is supposed to be real no-no. But it has been working fine for thousands of rounds.

I knew Finn fairly well, and in fact have shot all his African back-up rifles. He very much preferred his old .375 M70 above everything, but had nothing against his push-feed M70 either--though from what he said, it was definitely 3rd in line behind his .375 and his Westley Richards .458.

But I'm not arguing about push vs. controlled, just making some observations.



You are spot on, once Shelby got the 458 push feed he never went back to the 426 Rigby which was built on a Millitary Mauser action.

The debate "push feed VS controlled round feed" is much to do about nothing IMHO
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


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#2663076 - 12/21/08 08:00 AM Re: Back Up [Re: DARBY]
doclee Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 460
Loc: central Texas
Derick Van Staden .450-400 3" double
John Oosthuizen Echols 458 Lott 505 Gibbs
Gaven Hume 470 NE double

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#2666436 - 12/22/08 10:58 AM Re: Back Up [Re: doclee]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
The only thing I will argue on this thread is that Harry Selby did, in fact, go back to using a CFR, and did so as quickly as he could. I believe he told me that personally, but wouldn't swear to it..Finn Aagard also favored, I believe, a Rigby Mauser in .458. and he had both a CFR and pushfeed in 458 and a 375 Win pre 64 and I have shot the Mauser custom rifle.

Most PHs use a rifle that is not costly and ammo is available unless they have been presented with one from a client..Also most prefer a CFR, and most prefer the Mauser or pre-64..At least the ones I know do...

I suspect the 375 and 458 are the most popular PH calibers. Always have been I suspect, as a matter of availability and easy to come by ammo...

I know a few who are into guns a bit more than others such as Pierre van Tonder, He has a 500 Jeffey's, 416 Rem Ruger 77 camp gun, and an old 375 20 inch factory original pre 64 Win and this is his favorite.
Richard Lemer uses a 458 Imp.; Hatari a 505 as I recall; Johan calitz a Searcy .470; Barry Van Heerden uses a .470 his dad gave him and his brother uses a 416 Rem 700; His dad used a .470 also, the father purchased a number of double rifles when they could be had for a song..George Hoffman mostly used the 416 Hoffman CFR and a Rem 700 in same, but had a number of rifles...I know a lot of PHs these days that use doubles, I think they feel it helps business and adds to the ombiance of being a PH, and some were gifts from satisfied customers.

Bottom line is PHs just like thier clients use and assortment of rifles and I don't see that being a PH automatically makes one an expert on big bore rifles as I know many PHs that are not particularly gun nutty, but are good hunters and I know PHs that are not particularly good shots but they too are good hunters..

I know many gun scribes that are experts on big bore rifles and a well known gun scribe is probably the best source of information to the new hunter or even the gun nut...It is their business to know these things and the magazines are your best source of information...PHs are supposed to be good hunters and most all of them are that.

Just my opine! No saying I'm right but I believe I am...:)
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

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