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#2700163 - 01/05/09 Hawk knife?
humdinger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 2033
Loc: Twin Cities MN
I get a magazine called "the backwoodsman" and it is a primitive / homesteader type magazine that is unique to best describe it. There is an ad for a custom knifemaker name Robert Hawk from Ferndale WA and you have to write him to get information. He makes a fixed blade drop point knife that is intriguing so I wrote him. The knife is about 3.75" long x 5/32 thick x 1.5" deep and had a dymo wood handle. He makes the blade from 0-1 tool steel, heat treats it, and "cryogenically treated" although he refers to "deep freeze" treatment in his literature.
He's a very low tech guy with no web site and he hand wrote his response to me. Nothing comes up on a google search.
The knife, sheath, and matching 25 degree sharpener block cost $120 + $8 S&H.
This is the first time I have checked out a custom knife and I want to know if anyone has seen these or if that steel is not the best. I am leary of the "cryogenically treating" if it is not done at a real cryo treater.
My current knife is an older buck vanguard (steel ? - early model)and wonder if this is much of an upgrade.

Opinions welcomed.

H
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#2700617 - 01/05/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: humdinger]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
Can't speak for his work. I have never heard of him or seen any of his knives. As for 0-1 Tool steel its a fine steel for a blade. As for his heat treating you don't state a RC. As for cryo he could be using Liquid Nitrogen to accomplish this. I have several knives made by other guys that do use that method and I have never had a problem with any of the knives. All I could tell you is sight unseen $128 is not that much if the knife intriges you that much.
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#2700956 - 01/05/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
humdinger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 2033
Loc: Twin Cities MN
MCH,
Verbatim from his flyer:
"I grind form the blade. Using a proprietary process, the blade is heat treated to 60 - 65 rockwell hardness then placed in a deep freeze. This holds the sharpness of the blade longer."

I can only assume the hardness is on the rockwell C scale and hope he sends it out for cryotreating. The blade length is 3 3/4" x 1-1/2 so it is a touch short and stout, but it is intriging. I looked at the knives in cabelas during lunch hour and this one doesn't seem that expensive now.

H
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#2701003 - 01/05/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: humdinger]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
60 to 65 is a large swing in hardness. A deep freeze can mean a lot of different things. using a baking pan and some liquid nitrogen could be considered a deep freeze. The size is a little long to my liking, I prefer a blade between 2-3/4 to 3 inches. However an extra 3/4 of an inch wouldn't kill me. Drop point is one of my favorites. Does he say if he tapers the tang or has a distall taper? I would assume at that price it would be a full tang.
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#2701012 - 01/05/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
Oh yeah I can't say I am sold on a blade needed to be cryo treated. As for the Rockwell Hardness I think in my opinion 65 in 0-1 tool steel is to much. 59-61 would be fine.

At that price you may want to contact MichiganRoadKill on here. He and I have been working on a knife design I think might fit your needs well. Ask him about the MCH blade.


Edited by MontanaCreekHunter (01/05/09)
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#2701250 - 01/05/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
humdinger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 2033
Loc: Twin Cities MN
oh...my head is getting dizzy from these new terms you are throwing out! This is telling me I need to do some homework.

I am for helping the little guy out who makes knives, but I hate to pay good money for a wrong product. Now is the time to pull my three fixed blade knives out and determine what I like and don't like about each and then contact Michiganroadkill. His work does look good from another post here.
Thanks.

H
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#2701803 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: humdinger]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
65 for 01 is too much. Randall uses 01 for his carbon steel knives and they are about RC55. Most makers who use carbon steel, 01, L6, and a few others hold the hardness to about Rc55, some even a little less.

Cyro treating has to be at least -320 F. A deep freeze won't do it. I have heard of some people using dry ice, but that is only about -120 F, still not cold enough.

01 is a carbon steel, and to the best of my knowledge, would not benefit from Cyro quenching. Stainless steels, 440C, ATS 34, 154CM, BG42, are the ones that benefit from Cyro quenching.

If you are interested in one of his knives, ask him how he knows they are Rc60 to 65, and who does his heat treating, and how it is done. Cyro treating will not harm 01, but it probably does not benefit it, either.

Rc65 is getting into the area of milling cutters and lathe tool bits made from high speed steel. If you go to Rc65 with 01, it is going to be extremely brittle. I was not even aware that 01 could be taken to Rc65, but maybe it can.

01 is a great knife steel, probably one of the best, even in the era of the super steels that are available now, but the best steel available, improperly heat treated, is just about worthless.

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#2703460 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
13579,

I take it from the above post this guy does his own heat treating and so called cryo. I don't know for sure but assume that he is using liquid nitrogen in a baking pan to do what he calls cryo treating. I have several blades of 0-1 @ 59RC and never have had a problem with them. Then again I use them as they were intended to be used. A hunting skinning knife of around 3 inch blade lenght isn't made to pry open things. I like 0-1 but in my opinion A-1 is better when properly worked.
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#2703641 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
MCH:

"I take it from the above post this guy does his own heat treating and so called cryo."

That was my impression, also. The reason for my comments is there is heat treating, then there is heat treating. There is a difference in heating a piece of steel red hot with a welding torch and dropping it into a can of motor oil, and guessing it is about Rc65, as opposed to using a heat treating furnace with an accurate temperature guage on it, then tempering it using the same quality control.

Tell me more about the Cyro quenching with Liquid Nitrogen in a baking pan. I send my blades to Paul Bos, and the only Liquid Nitrogen I have ever seen was in tanks at doctor's offices, where they use it to remove skin cancer. I don't know what type of Liquid Nitrogen set up Paul uses, but I would think it would be something designed for the purpose.

Could you just pour it into a baking pan and put the blade in it? Looks like it would evaporate pretty fast.

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#2703658 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
He might use a heat treating furnace, have a Rockwell tester, and a commercial Cyro quenching set up, and do it right, or send his blades to a commercial heat treater. I don't know, but I would find out before I spent the money on a knife.

That is the reason I send my blades to Paul Bos. A proper heat treating set up is very expensive, and some of the super steels have to be heated in a controled atmosphere or vacuum furnace.

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#2703687 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
Yes put the blade or blades in the baking pan then pour the liquid nitrogen into the pan. It will evapotate pretty fast is correct.
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Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.

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#2703694 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
If you can not control the heat level and time then you will not get a consistant and accurate heat treat. A torch isn't what I would consider heat treating but then again 90% of the blades I buy come from guys I know know what they are doing or like yourself send it off to be heat treated.
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#2703737 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
From what I have read, the blades have to soak in the liquid Nitrogen for about 24 hours, then allowed to warm up to room temperature very slowly. Wouldn't the liquid Nitrogen evaporate before the 24 hours were up, if you used a baking pan?

I think there is more to it than just dunking a blade in liquid Nitrogen, letting it soak for a minute or two, then taking it out.

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#2703747 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
Yes you have it correct. I am just saying what some makers do and try to pass off as cryo treating. Like you and I both agree on is that either way 0-1 doesn't need it or benefit from it.
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#2703758 - 01/06/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
Also you can soak if you have a canister that you could get the blades in and then seal so that it will not evaporate. Honestly I am not sold on cryo even on super steels. I think heat treated properly is all you need.
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#2704918 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: MontanaCreekHunter]
humdinger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 2033
Loc: Twin Cities MN
Interesting discussion on heat treating and cryo treating. I would suspect the guy is sending these out to a lab and doesn't have tight quality control. He could be dunking the knives and that wouldn't give the steel structure enough time to re-align since it doesn't happen as fast as heat treating when comparing to T-T-T diagrams.
Lead time is 4-5 weeks so he may subcontract a lot of this work too.

In the end, I got my three hunting knives out including a Kabar and a mora knife and determined this profile is not what I want. It is too deep and I want a slimmer profile for "coring" my whitetails. The guy does offer custom profiles, however my problem is I like to touch & feel products first.
How do other custom knife makers handle the situation where people want to "touch" products first?
H
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Other than that, How was the show Mrs. Lincoln?

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#2704977 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: humdinger]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
"How do other custom knife makers handle the situation where people want to "touch" products first?"

About the only way practicable to do that is to set up at knife shows. I am leery about sending a knife to someone to 'see if I like it.' I've never been burnt, but I've come close.

I once loaned a knife to a person to test. It was a really nice knife, mirror polished 154 CM, a four inch clip point blade, tapered tang and an ivory Mircata handle that I had a ring neck pheasant in flight scrimshawed on, at considerable expense.

The idiot went on vacation to a beach and used the knife to dig clams in the sand. Needless to say, it was terribly scratched and dull.

He wanted to buy another knife, but not that one. I wouldn't sell him one of any type, at any price, and I have never spoken to him again.

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#2705007 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
To really find out if it suits your purpose is to use what you think would work for you, or one similiar.

Years ago, when I first started making knives, I designed one for my own use. I thought it was the perfect knife. It fit my hand perfectly and had a blade shape that seemed just perfect for field dressing. I was going to put it into production and get rich.

I still have it. Shortly afterward, I killed an antelope, and used the knife to field dress it. That was the most ungainly, clumsy, hard to control, hard to handle knife and uncomfortable to hold knife I have ever used.

That is the only time I have ever used it.

In my opinion, the Russell pattern is the best design ever thought up for using for field dressing and skinning. It is not all that attractive, and many people give them a glance and go on by, but use it and you quickly form a different opinion.

It works.

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#2705252 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
VAnimrod Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 61130
Loc: gone
 Originally Posted By: 13579
To really find out if it suits your purpose is to use what you think would work for you, or one similiar.

Years ago, when I first started making knives, I designed one for my own use. I thought it was the perfect knife. It fit my hand perfectly and had a blade shape that seemed just perfect for field dressing. I was going to put it into production and get rich.

I still have it. Shortly afterward, I killed an antelope, and used the knife to field dress it. That was the most ungainly, clumsy, hard to control, hard to handle knife and uncomfortable to hold knife I have ever used.

That is the only time I have ever used it.

In my opinion, the Russell pattern is the best design ever thought up for using for field dressing and skinning. It is not all that attractive, and many people give them a glance and go on by, but use it and you quickly form a different opinion.

It works.


Which Russell design?
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#2706241 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: VAnimrod]
humdinger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 2033
Loc: Twin Cities MN
 Originally Posted By: VAnimrod
 Originally Posted By: 13579
To really find out if it suits your purpose is to use what you think would work for you, or one similiar.

Years ago, when I first started making knives, I designed one for my own use. I thought it was the perfect knife. It fit my hand perfectly and had a blade shape that seemed just perfect for field dressing. I was going to put it into production and get rich.

I still have it. Shortly afterward, I killed an antelope, and used the knife to field dress it. That was the most ungainly, clumsy, hard to control, hard to handle knife and uncomfortable to hold knife I have ever used.

That is the only time I have ever used it.

In my opinion, the Russell pattern is the best design ever thought up for using for field dressing and skinning. It is not all that attractive, and many people give them a glance and go on by, but use it and you quickly form a different opinion.

It works.


Which Russell design?


I would be interested in a picture of this. Is it the canadian belt knife pattern?
H
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#2707536 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: humdinger]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464


This is one I made using a stag handle. The blade is mirror polished. The discloration on the blade is from the flash.

It is slightly different from the Original Russell, as it does not have a thong hole.

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#2707592 - 01/07/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
13579 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 464
Also, the concave grind goes up higher on the blade than it does on the original Russell.

Leaving off the thong hole and making a different grind was my idea. Whether or not it is an improvement over the original is open to question.

This is another that I think is a Russell design, or similiar. This one has stagged cow shin bone. Never used one of these, but it looks like it would be a good skinner.




This is an enlarged Russell. I made this one to be used as a camp/utility knife. Chopping and things like that. The scratces are from cutting roofing shingles. It worked for that, to, In addition to being hammered through a board that I could not get to with a saw. Dymondwood Handle scales. I sorta abused in on purpose, just to find out how good it would hold up under adverse conditions. So far, it has passed with flying colors. I would still have it if it wasn't for a thieving police officer.

One thing I dread when field dressing a deer is cutting around the anus to pull the gut through. One thing I had in mind when I made this knife was chopping through the pelvic bone instead of coring the rear end. Never got to use it for that. Thieving police officer came along first.




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#2707860 - 01/08/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: 13579]
croldfort Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 4539
Loc: SE KS
I have several Canadian belt knives. For what it's worth, Cold Steel has a good cheap model for about $15. I gave my son one for Christmas as a companion for his Master Hunter. Good luck.

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#2708503 - 01/08/09 Re: Hawk knife? [Re: croldfort]
humdinger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 2033
Loc: Twin Cities MN
Thats the one I was thinking of. Actually the Hawk knife has a similar handle shape with a wide drop point.
I think this would be a good coring knife due to the length and I use a sagan saw or wire saw to cut the pelvis now.
Nice knife you made!
H
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