#294268 - 05/19/04 09:22 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Muley Stalker
Campfire Tracker
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 5625
Loc: Golden, CO, USA
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Steve,
PM sent for another copy if possible.
Thanks,
Scott
Edited by Muley Stalker (05/19/04 09:24 AM)
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#294269 - 05/19/04 09:30 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Ken Howell
UOP Emeritus
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 12412
Loc: Box 28 (17 Church St), Quemado...
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You're more'n welcome, Steve.
As I've been sitting here, virtually bound to my *&^%$#@! wheel chair, I've been alternately titillated and tormented by the impossible prospect of hunting elk or bear with you and Chub someday -- and my new super, double-improved ".338-06," the .340 Howell.
Oh, how sweet that'd be! So the next time you two are out together, pop a cork for me and enjoy the hunt enough for all three of us. (Don't bother to ask -- of course I want to see photos from your "Ken Howell" hunt!)
_________________________
Ol' Useless
Benefactor Member, NRA
member, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Life Member, The Wilderness Society
obsolete now, soon extinct
(Ain't no tree family in my family tree!)
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#294270 - 05/19/04 09:51 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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dogzapper
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus &
Campfire Guide
Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 4361
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Quote:
You're more'n welcome, Steve.
As I've been sitting here, virtually bound to my *&^%$#@! wheel chair, I've been alternately titillated and tormented by the impossible prospect of hunting elk or bear with you and Chub someday -- and my new super, double-improved ".338-06," the .340 Howell.
Oh, how sweet that'd be! So the next time you two are out together, pop a cork for me and enjoy the hunt enough for all three of us. (Don't bother to ask -- of course I want to see photos from your "Ken Howell" hunt!)
Friend Ken,
You got it!
Steve
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#294271 - 05/19/04 01:05 PM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Westman
Campfire Guide
Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 2508
Loc: No. Illinois
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Quote:
and my new super, double-improved ".338-06," the .340 Howell.
Is this something you can discuss?
I am about to build a 338-06 and my interest is piqued!
Thank you,
Bill
_________________________
~Politicians are like diapers.. both must be changed frequently, and for the same reasons.~
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#294272 - 05/19/04 01:59 PM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Ken Howell
UOP Emeritus
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 12412
Loc: Box 28 (17 Church St), Quemado...
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Quote:
Quote:
and my new super, double-improved ".338-06," the .340 Howell.
Is this something you can discuss?
Sure I can! (a) It's mine, and (b) I know all there is to know about it (which ain't much, yet  ).
I'll attach the dimensioned case drawing and (with a second post, right away) a split-image drawing comparing my .340 with the excellent "plain vanilla".338-06.
Your 'smith can get the reamers from Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool & Gauge (1-541-826-5808). Have him specify the authentic Ken Howell dimensions. I plan to donate my rougher, finisher, and size-die reamers and the go and no-go gauges to Redding's custom-die shop when Charlie Sisk has chambered and fitted my barrel.
I plan to use only one bullet in mine -- the new Nosler 225-grain AccuBond. Tuning the load will consist of tests with different primers, powders, and charge weights -- not with every maybe-good .338 bullet under the sun. This rifle will be one of two that I'll describe in detail in a book that I'm tentatively calling One-Bullet Rifles.
You can get an idea of the performance to expect by looking at the (unauthorized) modified form of my .340 at AHR's web site. (That version has less case capacity than my original design, and only AHR has the brass and the dies for that smaller version. I'm buying 200 of the cases and will have to fire-form 'em with inert filler to bring 'em up to full capacity.)
You can form cases from .30-06 or .35 Whelen brass if you don't mind having a neck shorter than the specified 0.375 inch. (The '06 and Whelen are 2.494 inches long. My .340 is 2.600 inches long, so the neck on a .340 Howell case formed from an '06 or Whelen would be 0.269 inch long.)
Attachments
293781-340 Howell.jpg (30 downloads)
_________________________
Ol' Useless
Benefactor Member, NRA
member, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Life Member, The Wilderness Society
obsolete now, soon extinct
(Ain't no tree family in my family tree!)
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#294273 - 05/19/04 02:02 PM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Ken Howell
UOP Emeritus
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 12412
Loc: Box 28 (17 Church St), Quemado...
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Here (attachment) is how my .340 Howell compares dimensionally to the .338-06.
Attachments
293783-340 Howell SI.jpg (97 downloads)
_________________________
Ol' Useless
Benefactor Member, NRA
member, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Life Member, The Wilderness Society
obsolete now, soon extinct
(Ain't no tree family in my family tree!)
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#294274 - 05/19/04 02:34 PM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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woofer
Campfire Tracker
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 5274
Loc: VT...
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how about asking the person requesting jims opinion.
someone out there is dragging around a 10lb 300 win and wants to know which is a better elk round. the 280AI or the 338/06? come on now. i think someone is blowing a little smoke up the "other" wind pipe.
i find it a bit hard to believe that someone can be remotely informed about two wildcats, which require handloading, and need JCs opinion on the two. how about a lighter 300? 06'?
i think jim was just blowong a little smoke of his own 
woofer
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#294276 - 05/19/04 03:47 PM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Ken Howell
UOP Emeritus
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 12412
Loc: Box 28 (17 Church St), Quemado...
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Quote:
... what do yuo see as the attributes when comparing to both the 338-06 and the Win mag?
For some inexplicable reason, AHR's reamers, etc, were made with 0.037 inch more neck and correspondingly shorter body. I can not predict how much more I'll get from my on-spec body's greater capacity.
AHR's web site lists the gross case capacity of their version as 78.3 grains of water (body, shoulder, and neck) versus only 71.2 grains for the .338-06 -- about 10% more. My original version, with its slightly longer body, may hold as much as 80 to 85 grains -- 12% to 19% more.
The .338 Winchester Magnum case holds about 85 to 86 grains, full to the mouth, so my full-spec .340 Howell has about the same gross case capacity as the .338 Winchester Magnum, in a slightly longer ".30-06" case instead of the fatter H&H-type case. That can't hurt.
I don't have velocity figures right handy, right now, for either the original .340 Howell or the .338 Winchester Magnum. AHR's chronographed loads with 225- and 250-grain bullets recorded velocities of 2,950 and 2,600 ft/sec, respectively, from their ersatz version. I'll probably load my slightly roomier version to lower pressures and probably get about the same velocities.
I'll be pleased, I'm sure, with even less -- maybe no more than 2,700 ft/sec from the 225-grain AccuBond -- if I ever get the chance to get close enough to an elk or whatever other big beastie that God will let me see through the scope long enough to get a shot off.
_________________________
Ol' Useless
Benefactor Member, NRA
member, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Life Member, The Wilderness Society
obsolete now, soon extinct
(Ain't no tree family in my family tree!)
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#294277 - 05/19/04 09:21 PM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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SeanD
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 650
Loc: Tigard OR
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Allan, you make a good point, but... There is nothing the 280 can do that the 7mm rem mag can't. All the advantages the 338 win has over the 338-06 the 7 mag also has over the 280. Jim likes the 280, but lists the 338-06 is on the top ten list of all time worst cartridges. But based on this argument, it makes no sense why he would like one and not the other.
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Sean
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#294278 - 05/20/04 04:40 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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bxroads
Campfire Guide
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3278
Loc: Browns Cross Roads, AL
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allenday:
Quote:
the truth remains that there is absolutely nothing that the .338-06 will do (or improved versions of same), that cannot be accomplished more effectively with a .338 Win. Mag.,
Sir you are absolutely correct. The Win mag version will most certainly knock you on your azz much more effectively in a 6 1/2 lb (scoped) rifle. I've got a 338-06 rig in the aforementioned weight and cant imagine taming the Win mag version in such a set up.....
Roads
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#294279 - 05/20/04 06:08 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Muley Stalker
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Registered: 01/31/01
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I believe I already mentioned the flaw in the "338 WM is better" logic. That would make the 338 ultra vastly superior to the 338 WM. And, while I don't disagree entirely with that, there is a reasonable limit to the recoil someone can/wants to live with.
I have no doubt that at reasonable hunting ranges, the -06 variety can do everything its big brothers can do. Maybe not with quite the authority, but equally dead.
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#294280 - 05/20/04 06:27 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Ken Howell
UOP Emeritus
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 12412
Loc: Box 28 (17 Church St), Quemado...
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The laws of physics and thermodynamics explain very simply why the elephant is more efficient at storing and exuding heat than a banty hen. But the banty's by far the better choice for sitting on her eggs. Bigger and "more efficient" aren't always the best criteria for making a practical choice. If they were, the .340 Weatherby or the .338-.378 would be the only current .338 worth talking about.
_________________________
Ol' Useless
Benefactor Member, NRA
member, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Life Member, The Wilderness Society
obsolete now, soon extinct
(Ain't no tree family in my family tree!)
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#294281 - 05/20/04 07:32 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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allenday
Campfire Guide
Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 3052
Loc: Yamhill Co., OR
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I think that the quest for efficency can be a rather misguided endeavor, especially if you're hunting on the other side of the world where the only additional source of ammunition is at your loading bench back home. The problem is compounded when the guys doing the paperwork are looking over your rifle, counting your cartridges, then wondering why the headstamp on your case dosen't match the caliber designation on your barrel. At that point, the issue becomes not a matter of "efficiency" but of common sense versus stupidity. And in today's world, the situation is getting much, much worse--not better. I won't create my own set of nearly insurmountable problems for the sake of theoretically more "efficient" cartridge. Going down in flames for the sake of a theory is absolutely ridiculous. There's no "efficiency" in that.......
Nine years ago, I went on a 21-day Tanzanian safari. I took a .300 Win. Mag. and a .458 Win. Mag. for armament. Due to airline problems, my duffle containing my ammunition arrived, but my rifles did not. The owner of the safari company I was hunting with offered to loan me his own .300 Win. Mag. Sako, plus a .458 M70. He didn't have much ammo available, but I had a plentiful supply of each. Problem solved, and it could have worked in reverse just as easily. Luckily my rifles DID show up the next day, but if they had not, and if I had a duffle full of off-beat wildcat or factory ammo, I'd have had a serious problem, and would likely have had to start and finish out the safari with the camp .375 H&H.
It's easy to jump to the conclusion that if a .338 Win. Mag. does more than a .338-06, then why not forget about the .338 Win. and focus on the .340 WBY. or .338-378. Lots of good reasons not to! First of all, ammunition for those two cartridges isn't exactly common anywhere, whereas the .338 Win. Mag. has made big inroads, even in Africa, and I've hunted with two safari companies in two countries that kept a limited supply in-stock, in-camp.
For another thing, most shooters can learn to shoot a .338 Win. Mag. very well, whereas a lot of guys simply can't get to the point of being really friendly with a .340 WBY. or something even bigger.
AD
_________________________
"The placing of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for lack of skill in marksmanship."
Colonel Townsend Whelen
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#294282 - 05/20/04 09:18 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Ken Howell
UOP Emeritus
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 12412
Loc: Box 28 (17 Church St), Quemado...
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A German writer friend has just pointed-out that my .340 Howell can be formed from Sako 9.3×66mm cases -- brass that I was not aware of. Its gross (overflow) capacity, according to QuickLOAD, is 81 grains of water.
Nice to know!
Thanks, W R!
_________________________
Ol' Useless
Benefactor Member, NRA
member, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Life Member, The Wilderness Society
obsolete now, soon extinct
(Ain't no tree family in my family tree!)
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#294284 - 05/20/04 10:04 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Mule Deer
Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 9788
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Like allenday, I have traveled here and there. This ammo problem can be very real, and not just in Africa. A friend and I once hunted black bears in Saskatchewan. I took a .358 Winchester, while he took a wildcat .338, the 8mm Remington Magnum necked up. (Just why he couldn't have used a .340 Wby. is a mystery, but then much of what we do is.)
You got it. His rifle showed up but not his duffle with the ammo--and even with a .340 I doubt he'd have had much luck in Saskatoon. Even my .358 was a little risky, but I suspect a box or two could have been found somewhere local.
The .338-06 is a good round. I have owned three--yet now don't own one. I still do have my old FN Mauser .338 Winchester Magnum, however, complete with a U.S. Customs Form 4457 that has allowed me to take it to three continents. It has killed everything I've ever shot it at, at any distance, the main reason a .340 or .338 RUM has never entered the picture.
JB
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#294285 - 05/20/04 10:23 AM
Re: Jim Carmichael, Explain Yourself
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Teeder
Campfire Guide
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 4067
Loc: The Snow Belt!
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I said I was done, but I guess I'm not
It seems this thread has gone from:
Why is the .280AI appropriate for elk and the .338-06 is in the top ten dumbest calibers (cartridges), to efficient cases and cooresponding head stamps and barrel stamps.
allenday,
If you use the head stamp and available ammo argument to justify why the .338-06 is dumb, then why is the .280AI a better choice? At least there has been ammo made for the .338-06 A-Square.
I keep hearing why the .338Win is great. It is, but why is the .338-06 dumb?
Yes, the .338 Win pushes a 250grain bullet faster, but so what, for elk.
I also heard the comment that the Mag works better for it's intended purpose, which I believe Winchester brought it out as the Alaskan (or at least the rifle it was chambered in). "Alaskan" to me screams Big Bears and Moose. Yes, pushing the 250 grain slug faster than a .338-06 can, means something there, but the letter was asking about Elk between the .338-06 and .280AI.
Ken,
What's the guess-timated completion date for your book on one bullet rifles? I would like to check that one out! I like the idea of only shooting one bullet type in each gun. That way you need alot more rifles! Just think how many you would need just to cover all the 7mm and .30 caliber choices we have!
I hope the guy that wrote the letter to ODL could see this thread! This is fun! 
_________________________
Kevin
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