Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Europe Cartridges and rifles

You can see how crazy Americans in these forums are about reloading and trying to find the perfect loads that will make their hunting rifles shoot like target rifles, and perform flawlessly on all sorts of game.

I was wondering how much reloading, testing of factory ammunition, and use of chronographs there is among the European hunters.

I am particularly curious about those who use cartridges like the 7x57, 7x65R, 7x64, and the .270 Winchester, especially in carbines like the Mannlicher or BRNO Mauser. The .270 seems to be, or have been, a fairly popular cartridge in the UK and Europe, judging by the advertisements and articles I read in the magazines from there.

Ok, now we're talkin. I want to hear some ".275 Rigby vs. 7x57 Which one is better for Roe" arguments!

Alan

Usually, when a rifle is stamped ".275 Rigby", you can bet is going to be somewhat upscale.

Reloading is not very common at all here.

Hunters and sport shooters / paper punchers are most of the time two very different worlds, IMO.

For exemple: I go to the range 2 times a year to check my zero, my own hability to hit a target at 100 meters and train myself on moving target ("running boar") (But I hunt all year long and regularly shoot at foxes, crows, pigeons and - I hope it's going to become usual now - boars).

I still fire more cartdiges in two training sessions than in 30 group hunting days and about 30 lone hunting evening or mornings I have in a year.

Most popular cartridges I use to see around me are:

8x57 jrs and 9.3x74 r in double barreled / express rifles
7x64 Brenneke, 9.3x62 and some 30.06 in bolt and in-line action rifles
.300 WM, .270 Win, 280r and the .300 / .270 WSMMMmmmmmms in S.A.

I personnaly use .375 HH Mag and 7x64 in bolt action rifles. Those last 2 years I used only the .375.

You regularly shoot at foxes and pigeons with a .375 H&H Mag? Wow! No wonder your face looks like that.

I'm just giving you a hard time. I think......

Alan

Hi dear friends,

As Grand Veneur said handloading is not a commun thing with french hunters too. Except the guys who use old calibers or want to improve performance on game from such calibers as 45_70, 444, and 30WCF and 44Mag, or for old euro calibers, mostly german.
Today it's really difficult to improve on precision of industry loaded cartridges for hunting purposes. For my business i have the chance to test and shoot about all the combination of possible cartridges. I you have an honest rifle, a good scope, and really knows how to shoot, it's difficult to find bad factory cartridges;
But in my case i began handloading in 66 when 9 years old with my father's Lyman nut crackers (a large and a small) then went to RCBS and Lyman Orange crusher, i was moulding 38SP and 30-30 bullets a age of 10 (i stopped long time ago, now i buy lead bullets from Montana Bullets) so i follow on handloading cartridges and when not testing factory ammo i hunt with mine. Mostly for lever guns: 348Winch, 356Winch, 405Winch, 45-70 and now .50Alaskan. I one place where i hunt in battue we are between 16 to 22 hunters (depends of weather!) we are six handloaders; calibers run from 44Mag to 50 Alaskan throught 375 Ruger and 416Rem Mag. I have also some friends who handload else where and sometimes we prepare special cartridges for friends. Mostly 44Mag and 444Marlin with tougher and heavier bullets to limit meat destruction as often occur with frangible factory loads.
Here are some of the lever i reload for...

To Lee2',

Speaking for France, yes the 270 is really well appreciated in our country even in semi auto rifle like BAR and to a lesser extend Rem 74OO, mostly used in stalking, high seats or mountain hunting the 270 got really good reports in battue hunting far better than his small caliber seem to offer. In driven hunt most used bullets are 150 to 160grs like the new XP3, the old Lapua Mega160, the nex loading from Norma with 156 Vulkan. handloagers use 150 and 160 Partition mostly. I use also 170Hawk. We have also special french made lead free bullets the Sologne GPA and the Sauvestre Fip loaded in France which have sterling reputation.
The 7x57 aka 275Rigby is forbidden in France (yes it is) cause it's a former military caliber. It's rimmed version is free and you can find it in old drilling or mixte (one rifled and one smooth barrel)but the 7x65R, more potent tend to replace the former. It's about the equal of a factory ladden 280Rem and is powerful enough for all the game we hunt if the bullet is in vital zone. As all the smaller calibers, it's a bit light on heavy game hunted by dogs drive, cause they are full of adrenaline and the shot could be a little border line. I use some time the 7x65 for mountain hunt in a Merkel K1 kipplauf and i even shot a swedish moose (390kg)with it in dog's driven hunt.
I also killed big red stag does and some good wild boars using only Norma Oryx factory made or 150grs Partition handloaded max.

Alan:

Yes I shoot foxes with my 375 and damages could be greater with a quickly expanding .222 or a quicker .223 WSSM.

No I don't shoot pigeons and crows with my .375. This wasn't about the gun and caliber I use but about the practice ... In such a case I simply use a shotgun ...

Hi Grand Veneur

You're right about the 375 be it a H&H or a Ruger it destroy less meat than a 300Winch with light bullets or even in case of foxes a 22-250 with Nosler BT at short range.
For town pigeons and even in country in center of France (mother in lax house) i like to use an air gun. In this case un AA 410 with moderator, scoped, in 22 caliber. This PCP air rifle with 10 shots drum is a wonderfull killing machine for such flying rats.

Dom

I was talking about the "ramier" pigeons (palombes) ...

By the way, it is legal to shoot them with a .375 ...

I understand, i hunt ramier too, but i absolutly dislike town pigeons and normally you can't shot them it's forbidden but they are as i said before flying rats. You can't shot them but cities spent hundreds of thousand euros to poison them...Crazy world we live in!!
With the 375 it could be interesting.....

grand veneur and Marseille,

I just acquired a 7x64mm last year and am learning it. I bought the rifle, a BRNO 22F, and would not have cared what caliber. Mine has a 21 inch barrel and I am thinking of later buying an full rifle in 23 or 24 inch barrel, like a Steyr M or Sako, or building one on a Mauser or Ruger 77 action.

I am shooting some 175-gr Remington factory ammunition in the 7x64 now, and some Norma. Next, I will reload the brass with 140-grain CoreLokt, 154-grain Hornady, and 160-gr Sierra bullets and test for accuracy and velocity from this carbine.

So Marseille, what sort of velocity are you getting from your Merkel 7x65R with various ammunition, and what do you like on game? That is a fabulous stalking rifle.

I also have a 20-inch .270 Steyr M carbine, so I wonder what makes of rifles you shoot, and what loads you find work the best in them, both in accuracy and velocity.

GV, like I said, I'm just kidding. I have never shot a 375 H&H but I have shot my 35 Whelen. I'm going to guess that the recoil on the 375 is somewhat more than the 35. I'm not a little guy and can take my fair share of recoil but I'm developing a twitch and a ringing in my ears just sitting here thinking about walking around plinking and taking pot shots at varmints with a 375 H&H Magnum. To each his own I suppose.

Alan

With the Nosler Partition 150grs i was around 870m/s with VN160 and 58grs. Its a load for the 7x64 but as the Norma cases are strong and the Merkel K1 very strong, i was hot loading a little bit the rimmed case. With that load and some factory Oryx 170grs (changed to 156grs now) i shot 23 pieces of game in two years including a moose (that i doubled cause i though it was too big) with 25 shots.
I wounded a big boar in driven hunt, shot high on the spine crest (in french: apophyse)it fell like dead, only to go back on his legs to disappear five minutes later. Was killed a week later. It was the only miss in 25 shots. This rifle shoots bullets like if they are guided. Now i will use 140TTSX, if i can get good precision cause i will get a little bit more speed and this bullets are tough enough for the game i hunt.
The 7x64 is as good as 270 and 280, in France it's often used in driven hunt even in semi auto rifles from Merkel, Sauer, Browning, Verney Carron with good results. Normaly the case head is a little smaller in diameter than the standard 8x57IS/30-06 case.The 154grs Interlock that i tried in some 7x64 gave good velocity, not much pressure and good precision. My brother had a ZKK600 in 7x64. He reloaded with Speer 160grs GranSlam for around 860m/s with french Vectan Tu7000 powder but don't recall the weight.
Was a good killer that load for boars. Vectan Tu7000 is very close to the 4350s, so this powder must be OK as are the 4831 with heavier bullets like 175/180grs.
The SteyrM is really one of the best rifle ever made, i'm in love affair with them cause i'm former salesman for former french Steyr distributor. I think if i was in the US i would reload a 130grs with the standard charge of IMR4831. You must have a winner!!!!

Dom

Alan, you should know Belgian people, especially southerners like me, have no sense of humor

My 375 HH has a straight comb stock - US typical - a good pachmayr recoil absorber and, scoped, weighs around 10 pounds (See it: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1592220 )... The result is a very reasonable recoil. Of course there is a hard blast that reduces shooting comfort compared to the one of a light caliber rifle but actual recoil speed and energy are quite affordable.

And .... yes, this is not necessary not reasonable but ... I like it

Here's my borrowed rifle in a really nice sitting spot in Germany last July..
It's an old guild gun , 20 gauge over 5.56x52r. Seen quite a few of that caliber in Germany along with 7x64. Cool little cartridge that 5.56 savage is.

I really liked this gun with it's exposed hammers and I really got attached to it. The gun's owner thought differently. It had an older Zeiss on top.

Did I already say I like hammer guns?

Ironically, the older Zeiss burned me about an hour later at dusk when a Rehbok came off the hill and I could see him with glass but not with the old scope. That's the breaks, LOL.

If it weren't for the Europeans preserving the Savage 22 High Power in their combination guns, we Savage 1899 lovers would be in trouble for cartridges.

I have seen some other French hunting sites posting about their lever guns. They have good taste in those old Winchesters, but I am surprised to not see more of the older Savage 1899s in .22 HP. I suppose it is more of a problem finding one, or buying it here and getting it shipped over the Atlantic.

I like those Over/Under rifles I see in .444 Marlin. That would be a great gun for driven boar or stag in the woods (or a big cat).

I have and 1899 takedown in 22 HP. The S&B ammo I have for it is (I believe) corrosive because of the horrible experience I had after shooting it for the first time. Normal cleaning with gun oil and then looking down the bore two days later. I gave it the hot soapy water treatment and it has been fine since. It is very rough and it is one of my project guns. The only dies I've found are about $125 new and I have yet to see .228 bullets. Even with the dies and cast bullets I think it would still require some $$$ to get set up. As much as I shoot it S&B has enough ammo for now.

Alan

Hornaday used to make bullets for the 22HP-70gr .227
I looked and they still do.
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=190205

Bucktale:

That scope, I wouldn't hunt with and the caliber seems just too light game / stalking specific for me but ... I really like the rifle !!!