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#53260 - 02/23/02 04:56 PM LONG RANGE???
7mmbuster Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 2613
Loc: Alum Bank, PA, U.S.A.
Heard from a guy on another forum about shooting deer at long range. Now, I'm thinking 400 yards. NO! 500? Hah! He's talking over 750 yards! This is a sport?!

When did deer become a bullseye on an oversize benchrest range? For crying out loud. If you got these sniper fantasies, then join the freaking military!

The idea of hunting is to get as close as you can, not shoot from the next county. You try to be a part of the environment, you blend in. YOU BELONG THERE. Deer are a precious natural resource, and deserve to be treated with care and respect.

I've been hunting for over 25 years, and in that time, I've lost two. Both times, it took a few days for the sick feeling in the pit of my stomach to pass. I just felt horrible because I knew those deer would suffer a lingering death. If you don't get that same feeling on loosing one, do me and the deer a favor and shoot paper.
7mm
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"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." Wesley Pruden



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#53261 - 02/23/02 05:12 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
Boggy Creek Ranger Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 15945
Loc: Leon County Texas
Now 7m/m old bud calm yourself or you are going to rupture something. I happen to agree with you but not every body does. There are some that can shoot deer in the next zip code and do it right regular I am sure. What we got here is one of those can/should issues. Just because you can do a thing should you do it? This gets into ethics and most every body has a slightly different set that was put in them or they adopted. If you and me was raised different does that give us the right to call foul on somebody else as long as what they are doing is legal. We ain't going to do it and we might not appreciate any body else doing it either but we can't stop them or hinder them. Just got to live with it don't we?
BCR
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#53262 - 02/23/02 05:14 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
Big Stick Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 37627
Loc: Paradise,Alaska
DON'T go to Saeed's Site and read the Match King thread,it would snap you. Over 1000 posts on it,thus far.............
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#53263 - 02/23/02 05:45 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
Kodiakisland Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 3353
Loc: AK..CO..MO..CO..EU..AR..next??...
7mm
I mostly agree with you. Our grandparents were bringing home the meat on a regular basis with inferior guns because they could hunt. Not because they could shoot. Many people today spend so little time in the woods that they have no idea how to hunt. For them, the ability to shoot at long distances is needed if they plan to bring any meat home. Others are good hunters and good shots and do a little of both. Of those that I know who regularly take deer at extreme ranges, they do it often and talk very little about it. They certainly don't try to get others to try what they are doing. They also pick and choose when to shoot at long range as to increase their chances of a clean kill. I have found most(not all) of those talking about shooting long ranges couldn't tell the difference between 350 and 700 yards.

Personally, I try to get as close as I can. I have yet to feel the need for a shot over about 450 yards. I have had the oppurtunity to shoot at much longer ranges, but never felt I had to. For me the killing is really secondary. The hunt is what I crave.

I just hate to see those people who get the latest "flat shooting laser beam" and think they can now shoot at stupidly extreme ranges. I have seen their injured deer left to rot because they weren't going to walk that far to see if they hit it if it didn't fall before their eyes.

I myself prefer to target shoot at the range, and hunt the animals.
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#53264 - 02/23/02 06:24 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
7mmbuster Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 2613
Loc: Alum Bank, PA, U.S.A.
It just galls me, because I was raised on "speed beef", usually procured through "less than sporting" means. Venison was and is a very big part of my diet. Seeing them go to waste, even road-kill, bothers me. Kinda like just taking meat out of the freeezer and tossing it to the 'possums.

At that kind of mileage, I seriously doubt that shots are followed up, and if they are, I doubt the deer is hit hard enough to be nearby. I don't see anyone (even SGT York) shooting that distance and not loosing quite a few. Not many guns without a lanyard carry enough umphhh at that distance to guarentee a clean kill. None that I want to stand behind, anyway.

I have killed a few deer that had been hit and lost. Most of them had gang-green poison throughout and were just wasted. Gang- green or starvation dragging your guts behind you is no way for any creature to die, much less a deer. I found one last year with the jaw shot off. It was trying to get to its feet when I walked up on it, but was too weak. I really felt for that deer.

I guess to me, it's a "willful waste makes wasteful want" deal. You only have to tag the ones you take out, and that's a shame. Some guys don't care if they crpple 10, as long as they get one, and that aint right.

Do enough hunting and, sooner or later, you're bound to loose one. I realize that as a fact of life. Why push the odds?
7mm


Edited by 7mmbuster (02/23/02 06:28 PM)
_________________________
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." Wesley Pruden



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#53265 - 02/23/02 07:03 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
Ken Howell Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 28926
I come at this subject from the angle of hunters' ethics and the inherent, inevitable imperfection of marksmanship and bullet placement, where I'm completely at odds with a friend of over thirty years who thinks that shooting AT deer from 1,000 or more yards WITH A SINGLE-SHOT is sporting.

NO ONE can be 100% certain that he can without fail put his bullet where it must go, at super-long range, to kill cleanly. Even bullets with "adequate" retained energy at those ranges, punching through deer at even shorter ranges and with "perfect" placement, often let deer escape over the ridge or into the brush and out of sight.

Out here, "long range" typically means from one side of a canyon to the other. Putting a bullet across that space can take less than two seconds -- but GETTING over there to find and follow a blood trail can typically take hours. The help of a partner to stay where the shot was fired, to guide you with a two-way radio, is against the law in some states (still is here, I assume). But without it, shooting at a deer from such a distance is (IMO) utterly irresponsible -- you can't be sure you'll know the right spot to be looking for sign when you get over to where you think "there" is.

No one owes it to a game animal to shoot it. But once you shoot it, you owe it to that wounded animal to finish it off as quickly and as humanely as possible. It is simply not sporting, in any sense of the term, to discard or ignore this responsibility as a fundamental decision in adopting a hunting method or procedure.

And yes, I do shoot prairie dogs at 500 yards and possibly farther -- with a powerful rifle and cartridge that blows 'em to tiny pieces with any hit. Game animals and varmints are different categories that require different responsibilities of the shooter. I don't ignore a wounded gopher or prairie dog -- I finish it off ASAP if I can.

I once watched from a distance, with binoculars, as my "sporting" friend, who hunts only with single-shots, stayed seated in his pickup when a doe he'd just wounded with a .270 humped-up and ran into a coulee. He'd hit that doe with solid placement in the lungs. I doubt that she went much farther than 100 yards, if that far. He went to another spot and shot another deer. When this one fell, he drove over to it and THEN got out of his pickup. I'm sure he doesn't cross any canyon and try to trail any deer he wounds from 1,000 yards away, on another mountain. I know he doesn't always kill with only one shot.

I have to wonder how many other long-range deer-shooters (a) always kill with one shot, (b) get a second, finishing shot into any deer they've only wounded, or (c) bother to cross the canyon to find and follow the trail of wounded deer that they can't finish-off from their original shooting positions.

I have my doubts.

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#53266 - 02/23/02 07:48 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
If It Flies It Dies Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 4092
Loc: TEXAS
Well, I should know better than to step into this pit, but when has that ever stopped me before?

First, let me say that I rarely if ever shoot at a deer over 200 yards, this, in spite of the fact that I often hunt with a .308 which is quite capable of placing the shot and killing one at 500m, since I regularly shoot steel rams at that distance with it offhand, and with a rest it will easily hold under a MOA at 500m. And, I often have a laser range finder with me in the stand. Why do I restrict my shot's range, because personally, I prefer to KNOW, beyond a reasonably doubt, that when I pull the trigger that animal is dead, and pretty much near the space he was occupying. Have I missed my aiming point, yes, the animal moved as the shot broke, etc, but, luckily, I have not lost one yet. But it could happen, for sure.

All that said, if someone has the equipment and knowledge to shoot animals at extreme ranges, I feel almost certain that their recovery rate is at least as high as the average hunters, and probably a good bit higher. If they approach it carefully and with the correct equipment and practice, I say, more power to them. Shooting across canyons, with the attendant poor chance of recovery would not be ethical IMO. But, shooting at a running deer in the brush at 50 yards isn't either, to me, and it is done every day during the season by many who would condemn the long range shooter. Boggy had it right, as usual, we might not do it, but condemning someone else's choices, solely on the basis of distance, is not with good cause IMO.
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"When we put [our enlisted men and women] in harm's way, it had better count for something. It can't be because some policy wonk back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn't thought out." General Zinni on Iraq

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#53267 - 02/23/02 08:48 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
BoydHeaton Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/23/02
Posts: 615
Loc: Lock Haven pa
I am the person 7mmbuster is talking about.And yes we do shoot deer at range's that other people may find unethical.I limit myself to 1000 yard's.But I do know people that have cleanly taken deer and elk at over double that.What most people don't understand is.That we don't get out our gun's and shoot a couple of shot's at the range and go hunting.I shot over 1000 round's last year at different range's from 400 to 1000 yard's.I shot in different weather condition.No wind.Light wind.Heavy wind.I have drop chart's for different alitude's and tempature.I also have chart's for wind.I know where the bullet is going.And any deer up to 1000 yard's is in real big trouble.I am sorry some people do not agree with the way I do thing's.I just came over here to state my case.Good Day....Boyd....

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#53268 - 02/23/02 09:19 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
Muley Stalker Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 5781
Loc: Golden, CO, USA
My $.02: There are few people that can even come close to a deer at these ranges. Most of the folks I run into in the woods couldn't hit within 20 feet of the animal. Those who consistently can, know what they're doing. Is it sporting? That's in the eye of the beholder.

Now, the topic was also introduced here of following up on your shots -- that's a whole other topic that is where my BIG beef lies with many hunters AND it has nothing to do with the range the animal was shot at. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "hunters" tell me of taking a shot and missing. I almost always ask if they went to the spot the animal was at and WAY TOO MANY times they say, "well, it didn't act like it was hit..." This pisses me off to no end!

So, off the soapbox, if a guy is willing to follow up on a 1000 yard shot, then more power to him. Usually a hunter can get far closer in the terrain that I hunt, so if you are going to check for blood after the shot, why not take the shot closer?

To me, this topic is quite similar to censorship. Who will the person be to decide what is acceptable and what isn't??? Correspondingly, wWho will be the person who decides what is too long and what isn't???

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#53269 - 02/23/02 10:56 PM Re: LONG RANGE???
BoydHeaton Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/23/02
Posts: 615
Loc: Lock Haven pa
There are FAR more people that do it than you think.For one thing we never hunt alone.I normaly have three guy's with me.And as for following up shot's.We know where the bullet is going.Have you ever seen a bullet arch into a deer at 1000 yard's?With the optic's we use you CAN WATCH THE BULLET from the time it leave's the barrel until it reach's the intended target.So when we hit a deer or an elk or a bear at long range.YOU KNOW YOU HIT IT.There is no doubt about it.The only thing that is different from what I do.And the person sitting in a fence row waiting for a deer to walk out in the field to feed.Is that I'm shooting a longer distance.That's it......You have stated you case.And I thank you for being truthful.I have taken people with your same thought's hunting one time.And they were hooked.It is not for everyone.But with pratice and the right equiptment.It does become quite easy.

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