#629818 - 11/03/05 11:07 PM
Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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RickBin
Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 7526
Loc: Los Angeles, California
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Folks:
It's my pleasure to welcome John Haviland to the Campfire.
John has brought the news of Winchester debuting a brand new bullet called the XP3 to take the place of the mighty Fail Safe. We have the first look and the world exclusive right here on the Campfire. Thanks John!
I'm proud to feature his article "Move Over Fail Safe" in this issue of the Campfire magazine, to be found HERE.
Please welcome him aboard in your usual fashion.
Thanks all, and welcome John!
Rick Bin
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#629820 - 11/04/05 01:43 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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hillbillybear
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 11877
Loc: Western NC
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Welcome to the Campfire. I've enjoyed your writing for many years.
Good Shooting,
HBB
_________________________
"Yesterday is history,
Tomorrow is a mystery,
Today is a gift."
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#629821 - 11/04/05 02:11 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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JonA
Campfire Regular
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1440
Loc: Everett, WA
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Thanks for the great article. That looks like a very nice bullet--finally a copper bullet that expands and has a high BC! 
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#629822 - 11/04/05 02:22 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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Dave_in_WV
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 10/12/03
Posts: 2319
Loc: West Virginia
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Great to have him. I've been evjoying his articles in Rifle. Welcome , John.
_________________________
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
--Albert Einstein
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#629823 - 11/04/05 02:37 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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264bore
Campfire Regular
Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 919
Loc: New Jersey
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John
Welcome to the campfire, what name will you be posting under? That new Winchester bullet looks good, although i doubt they will make one in .264 caliber, winchester seems to ignore this caliber with everything they make.
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#629824 - 11/04/05 03:08 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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Savage_99
Campfire Tracker
Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 7472
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Welcome to the campfire.
"Winchester states the polymer tip increases the bullet's ballistic coefficient and helps "produce consistent expansion of the hollow point design of the XP3 bullet at a wide range of velocities."
This confirms my theory on the cause of X bullet failures to expand.
"The average velocity of those bullets was 2,893 ft/sec five feet in front of the Model 70's 24-inch barrel. Extreme spread of velocity was 22 ft/sec.
Three 180-grain XP3 bullets loaded in nickel-plated cases in Winchester's new Supreme Elite brand ammunition grouped in 1.50, 1.27 and 1.44 inches at 100 yards, for an average of 1.40 inches. From where the bullets landed at the various distances, I estimated the trajectory of the 180-grain XP3 fired in the .300 WSM"
2893 fps?
_________________________
In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.
Mark Twain
Translation: If you don't know what to say in an argument then swear.
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#629825 - 11/04/05 03:16 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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Huntr
Campfire Tracker
Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 5055
Loc: New Mexico
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John,
Welcome!!! Glad to have you aboard the campfire! This place just keeps getting better!!
Huntr
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#629826 - 11/04/05 03:24 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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VAnimrod
Campfire Oracle
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 27024
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GOOD GRIEF!
Rick, my hat's off to you. You now have two of the only reasons I read hunting/shooting magazines anymore here at the Campfire: John Barsness and John Haviland.
Mr. Haviland, welcome! And, thank you for the article on "ordinary bullets." I found it very informative and rather provocative in this era of "super bullets." Old standbys, such as what you detailed, still get the job done for the VAST majority of hunting and hunters out there. A little recognition of this fact was appreciated.
Again, welcome to the 'Fire, and to Rick, my thanks.
_________________________
The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms ... the palladium of the liberties of a republic
3 J. Story, Commentaries §1890, p. 746 (1833)
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#629827 - 11/04/05 03:35 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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Dutch
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 2108
Loc: Idaho Falls, ID USA
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Seems like a pretty good effort on Winchester Ammo's part. Kinda like a North Fork without the rings, but with a polymer tip.
One concern I would expect to pop up is due to the deformation of the bullet: I'd like to see someone evaluate if this bullet has a tendency to travel straight after impact. Since it is essentially a "blob" when hitting hard targets, it may not maintain "head-on" orientation and veer off. FWIW, Dutch.
PS, welcome, John. Great to have you on-board (pun intended).
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#629828 - 11/04/05 03:48 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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FVA
Campfire Guide
Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 3049
Loc: NY
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Welcome and nice, straight foreward article.
_________________________
The man who says he can and the man who says he can't are both right.
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#629829 - 11/04/05 04:26 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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MurphysLaw
Campfire Regular
Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 1387
Loc: New York
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Welcome to the Fire John. I have ong enjoyed your work and look forward to your participation at the Fire.
Rick, once again, my hat's off to you.
Chris
_________________________
NRA Life Member
"All hunters should be nature lovers"
~Theodore Roosevelt~
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#629830 - 11/04/05 04:34 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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Brad
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 10955
Loc: Bozeman, MT USA
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Are we forming a Townsend area gunwriter's contingency around here ? 
Welcome aboard and thanks for the look at the new Olin bullet.
It's obvious what they were trying to accomplish with that bullet design but I can't say I'm overly impressed with the results... Dutch raised one issue that immediately came to mind.
Obviously bullet mfg's are trying to make bullets that retain 100% weight (to satisfy what consumers think they want) while having a wonderful, aerodynamic profile and good expansion. BUT, if said bullet expands as much as those 30 cal XP3's in your article, penetration is going to be more limited than, say, a Partition even though it loses around 35% of its weight. At the same time it also lacks the Partition's secondary fragment's. The XP3 "looks" like it's not going to do anything really well.
Sure wish Nosler woud put the polymer tip thingy on the Partition...
Best,
Brad
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#629831 - 11/04/05 05:07 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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kcm270
Campfire Regular
Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 846
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Nice article. Dutch raises a good point. I had that happen with a TSX this year from a 300 WSM, and it almost cost me recovery of a cow elk.
I disagree with the author's comments on the Failsafe, which gives me pause in reading the rest of it. The Failsafe wasn't perceived as failing to expand, they failed to expand. The folks at Three Forks ranch prohibited its use, after they lost three bull elk. All three were found days later with pencil sized entry and exit wounds.
I'll be curious to see how the new bullet works particularly in comparison to the Accubond, which appears to be a winner.
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#629832 - 11/04/05 05:50 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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Brad
Campfire 'Bwana
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 10955
Loc: Bozeman, MT USA
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KCM, I've used the 165 and 180 FS's on a bit of game. I used the 165's in a 30-06 and 180's in a 300 WSM, both going around 2,880 fps (the 300 WSM had a 22" bbl). I got impressive results on even thin skinned antelope with the 165's at 300 yards (where things had slowed down significantly), while the 180's penciled right through with practically no internal damage on a cow elk at 300 yards. Made me wonder if the 180's were from a "bad batch" or if they were designed to expand at much higher velocities. As far as I've seen the 165's work great and I'd certailny use those on any elk.
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#629833 - 11/04/05 06:06 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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High_Brass
Campfire Guide
Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 2672
Loc: Havelock, NC USA
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Welcome John. It's great to have you here at the campfire.
_________________________
"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country For Old Men
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#629834 - 11/04/05 06:14 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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allenday
Campfire Guide
Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 3052
Loc: Yamhill Co., OR
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This was a very good article, and has been stated, straight to the point, which is greatly appreciated.
It appears as though the decision has been made, and that the Fail-Safe is being discontinued altogether. Is this true across the board, even for the 375 H&H?
Personally, I've had great luck with the Fail-Safe on a great many animals, over sixty taken with the 180 F-S out of the 300 Win. Mag., including three members of the Big Five in Africa, as well as elk, black bear, and grizzly with the 270 gr. F-S out of the 375 H&H. I've never had the F-S not perform according to script and exceed all of my expectations in terms of terminal performance, even on smallish game such as Hill Country whitetails. It always seemed as though the faster you pushed it, the better it worked.
So I'm going to miss the F-S, it's one of the world's greatest big game bullets in my opinion. My worst criticism of the F-S is that many rifles just didn't shoot it all that well.
Quite candidly, I'm wondering if the discontinuation of the F-S and the introduction of this new bullet doesn't have more to do with production cost than anything else? Since I was a boy, I've noticed that a large percentage of the "improvements" that the gun industry hands us have more to do with saving the manufacturer money than offering actual improvements.
I hope that's not the case this time around...........
AD
_________________________
"The placing of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for lack of skill in marksmanship."
Colonel Townsend Whelen
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#629835 - 11/04/05 06:18 AM
Re: Ask John Haviland Questions About "Move Over Fail Safe."
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tjm10025
Campfire Ranger
Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 1587
Loc: Carmel, IN
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My compliments to JH on the article. Well-written and a pleasure to read. Couple of photos caught my attention, though.
And JH wrote: “Winchester states this expansion of the rear section of the bullet is a "patent pending design (that) yields a unique two-stage expansion at both the front and in the body of the bullet, resulting in massive knockdown power.""
I can just hear one of the engineers saying something like: "Rats. We should have made the jacket thicker at that point." And one of the marketing guys saying: "No, that looks really cool. I think we can do something with that."
-TJM
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