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Yes. The problem with this division is that conservationists are coming down as always in opposition to the preservationists even when they share common interests. It's frequently a tough call but to me, preservation of habitat for wildlife is a critical part of conservation of wildlife and increased hunting opportunities. In other words, I am almost always in favor of preservation of wildlife habitat but am also almost always in favor of freedom of access for hunters although not, necessarily, motorized access.
As far as this particular conflict is concerned, I don't have enough solid information to reach a conclusion and seriously doubt such information is to be found on any internet website! GD

Over 200 years ago, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."


Jefferson also wrote:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."


Seems like ol' Tom knew what the future might hold, eh?

But let's all hope it doesn't come to that...!

....only a complete IDIOT would suggest that 'Elk" could could, or WOULD choose to rustle on the range discussed here.

If you think what the BLM has been doing constitutes "Management", you've made the grade, and are INDEED a fuggin' idiot.

"Much Rather"

....that is verbiage worthy of one ENTITLED, or considering himself so.

GTC

WTF do you actually RESIDE, uninformed one ?

GTC

There is no such thing as "public" land.

Ill try and give it a shot birdwatcher



First let me say that there is always those that will abuse . that�s a given .
I cant speak for down there as the Bundy place is south of me by a few hundred miles . But up here , most don�t graze year round . In fact on USFS land your cows have to be out by the beginning of hunting season . Even if they didn�t require it , that�s what should happen if you want to keep your cows . They wont last a winter up there
Most folks know how many cows they put to range . But when that happens early prior to calving , then you have no real Idea . Add into that Ferial numbers . Those are more common south of here where the winters aren�t so bad as to clean them out
Now again I cant speak as to Bundy or how his operation works . Could very well be that he has cattle on the range year around . We however never did . I would however doubt that he is as he still would be maintain his bull cow ratios and have to do inoculations , brand , castrate�. Its also not uncommon to round up others cattle . They can range a lot farther then one thinks so you get strays . You bring them in and call the owner . Doing so is expected , its common curtsey
You also have losses , from predators , sickness , poachers and yes rustlers still live and breath today .
So in the fall your numbers were often different then the numbers you put out .



In some cases yes , in others no . over grazing can cause a lot of problems . You have stream bank erosion. Habitat destruction just to bring up two .
Cows don�t just hang out the spread out . Some stay in groups others go it alone . They like creek bottoms and thick brushy vegetation . Especially around or near water supplies .. So depending on the size of the creek , the cattal can have a very big impact on the fish in the stream , birds who nest in the under growth and such .
With the parry chickens , the issue is that they nest and bread in a specific type of terrain. Terrain the cows like as well . So their nests get trampled �� so range managment is really key for theatened species

Problem is that the management is sadly with the rancher . Regardless of what agencies like the BLM say . On a small scale the BLM does do some things like stream bank repair and defiantly the studies . But past that they tell the cattleman association , the ranchers and the general public. Ie hunters , fisherman , motorcycle clubs , off readers��. what they want done . Then a lot of time disappear
But mysteriously reappear when there is a ticket to write .
This isn�t to say all BLM district managers are bad . They are not . Some actually work closely with communities and really try to help people in every way possible . But it sure seems anymore that for every one of those , there are 2 or 3 of the bad ones . Which in turn seem to bread bad field agents which are nothing more then policemen with chips on their shoulders .


those can be just about anyone really , yep just like slob hunters .
They can be big outfits that buy up way more grazing rights then they can use just to keep others out .
Outfits that think because they have a grazing lease or right that they can keep the public out
Small outfits who cant gets a grazing lease , don�t have enough land so they just turn their herd out . Its cheepr to pay the fine then it is to pay the feed costs .
These same people often don�t maintain their herds IE no inoculations . Also often times they don�t have bulls . So they will release their cows out onto a given range . Some over on that ranches range , some over on another , and some on another as a way to get their heifers bread. Knowing that when those ranchers bring their herds in , they will be called to come and pick up their cows .


Well the BLM and USFS are the main two . Here the IDFG also reports violation. Then sometimes you have the land board and brand inspectors .

A good outfit though will have range riders or the rancher himself will check on the herd periodically. But remember once out on the range . The cows are not in one big herd . Their scattered . As far as inspections , you mean like health inspections and such ?? If so that�s the rancher or in the case of a sale , then sometimes there is a vet hired and available to inoculate at the sale if you so wish . Records are also kept and matched with ear tags when there are issues .



There is . However those fines often do not exceed the cost of being in violation .
Think of as obama care . Its not free if you cant aford the 120.00 base plan and the fine for not buying it is � , what are you going to do ?
On top of that , if the rancher is a member of the cattleman Association or other such group . Those groups often have their own systems for dealing with membership who are having a lot of complaints .
But even that doesn�t trump the community itself .
Its different out here . Granted not as strong as a difference as it used to be . But folks take care of each other . If someone is having issues , we help out . If someone calls you come a runnin . Why , because someday you may find yourself on the other end . Only when things get really , really bad between folks is there a break . But past that , even though you may not like someone real well you keep your mouth shut and lend a hand .
So while there is slob ranchers , unless they are really bad . Most folks don�t complain all that much other then between themselves

What then have I hunted on for 54 years now??

He might mean that public land is a euphemism for government owned land. If you can hunt on it, it's because the government has given you permission to, which permission can be withdrawn at any time.

Yes, like the 'public land' ie national parks and such 'closed' as punishment during the govt shutdown...

I am surprised at the harsh tones of these threads, a non-military burearocratic section of the govt sends their private army against a citizen...they didn't garnish wages, they didn't retain income tax, they surround his homestead?

Pravda and Tass US media sell the story...there should be citizen solidarity and govt accountability.

Reminds me of a famous quote by Martin Niemoller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

Rob Serling walkin' up out of the shadows, Cigarette blazing, and the Twilight Zone Theme audio ramping up can't cover your statement.

I have NO clue how to suggest a "we have just entered the Moronic Zone", either.

You are quite a piece of work,.....

GTC

oops,


Why get excited???? You do know ya can't fix stupid.



Take care, Willie

I know exactly, check it most every day. Do you have so much you find keeping track of it all difficult?



Well. I didn't think so, but the IRS felt otherwise



??? Never started.



While I know it is the height of cowboy impropriety to ask someone how many cows they got, in this case Bundy's cows were a national issue that coulda have and might still one day get someone shot.

So, is it actually stupid to expect a rancher like Bundy to have a pretty good idea of how many cows are on his lease, especially given the openness of the terrain and the fact that all those cows are gonna be dependent on just a few sources of water?

Birdwatcher

This just in:

BUNDY RANCH EVENT:

At 1750 hours ET, I was contacted by my source within the Department of Homeland Security regarding the current situation at the Bundy Ranch. To put it bluntly, the people are being hoodwinked into believing that the situation is being resolved. It is not. It is a strategic de-escalation to fool the public. This source stated that the retreat of the BLM agents and the release of the cattle was actually crafted as a potential plan yesterday (Friday, 11 April 2014) based on the following:

1. A military assessment of satellite and drone surveillance imagery of the �patriot resistance. Drones under the control of the U.S. military were in use, taking real-time photographic images of not just the activity at the ranch, but "identifying the protesters, any arms and any supplies they might have or be carrying. �Mission accomplished.�

2. Real-time communication intercepts between patriots on-site and their off-site support;

3. Active monitoring of internet traffic regarding the coverage of events at ranch;

4. The monitoring of real-time video from the scene.

This source stated that a response by the patriot movement was anticipated, although exceeded their expectations. Although this was a real operation, they also ran this as a test case for future government operations once they saw the response. They were also actively managing the media, in some cases threatening to cut off White House access to anyone covering the event.

Despite this, the coverage by the alternative media began to create a public relations problem that was not easily managed. Note the lack of acknowledgment by the White House regarding this event. They are intentionally framing it as a state issue, despite the fact that all federal response has been and continues to be from the White House. There is a reason for this � a reason that has not been identified in any of the public reports to date. I will explain in further detail in a follow-up report on Sunday, after this source attends [redacted] to obtain more specific information about future federal operations. Regardless, according to this source, the government will take back �their land� as they must to fulfill international obligations. It was never about grazing rights or anything other than (1) �securing clear title� to the land, and (2) further demonizing any patriotic resistance. It is my understanding, based on the information from this source, that it is a critical task to create a situation that will also advance their agenda of gun control and confiscation.

A more detailed report will follow on Sunday, 13 April 2014, with additional and much more specific information about their inside plans and future operations.PLEASE MAKE THIS VIRAL!

And if asked on a national radio show exactly how much you had in there while you KNOW someone is actively trying to steal it from you, would you tell exactly how much it was or would you demur?

Good point.

OTOH, IIRC something like 20% maybe 30% of the cattle rounded up on Bundy's lease were apparently feral; no brands no tags. I guess that at best amounts to lost income on an efficiently managed spread, and at worst evidence of slack management and neglect?

Birdwatcher

A calf or a yearling without a brand does not equate to an inefficiently managed spread. It means that they hadn't gotten out there to brand them yet this year.

You actually know something about ranching! I'm impressed. Still at it?

The govornment took all my families land in the fifties. $50 per acres, or nothing. It's all under Sam Rayburn Reservoir. None of this is new.