Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire How Dumb Can Bundy Be?

No, he was also restricted to 158,000 acres in 1993. He ignored that and has been grazing on over 600,000.

Although, I've never really understood how they ever got cows to pay attention to grazing allotment boundaries. It seems if we could patent that process, we could put barbwire manufacturers out of business.

To bring you up to date to perhaps clarify your over grazing question:

In 1993 Bundy had a grazing permit on 600,000 ac. The BLM cut that to 150,000. From 600 cows to 150 cows. (Not enough for a family to live on.)

At that point Bundy continued to graze the 600,000 ac with 600 cows.

It wasn't an increase of cows per acre. Never was.

can't do vida on my satilite...but I have seen it since my post ...what a dumdazz...even if he was "trying to say something -he sure did not xplain it well....

Not directed at anyone.

Bundy is a friggin' idiot. I'm convinced of that.

He flies the American flag but won't recognize the fed's control of his land and he wants nothing to do with the federal government.

He's played the BS card by saying he wanted to pay his grazing fees to the state/county but they aren't the authority he owes the money to.

He goes on a race tirade and opposes people that leech off the system but he hasn't paid his grazing fees for 20 years.

Bundy and wife have been going on and on about the poor little dogeys like they're family pets. Holding a dead calf while being interviewed was flat out tacky.

I get it. The feds went way overboard rounding up his cattle during calving season but trying justify his cause by garnering sympathy doesn't address the original problem. He never mentions the turtle issue that started this whole thing and that fundamental issue is his only hope of keeping control of the land.

He was screwed by the feds in 1993 when they reduced the number of cattle allowed to graze on the land and unless he gets the courts to reconsider that ruling he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Everything he's done since then hasn't helped his cause.

Has this stupid phook ever consulted an attorney?

It sure seems like he hasn't.

In a certain sense, the bugger's almost to stupid to be true, and paints a TERRIBLE picture of American stock men in general.

Not surprised that he was saved til' last.

GTC

And browsing around, I haven't come up with a single study that shows moderated grazing seriously affects tortoise populations. The biggest effect, tho not quantified, was that cattle can collapse tortoise burrows, which pre-supposes that these competent diggers have no natural recourse for that happening. Apparently competition for forage wasn't as big as one might think.

The other effects were even more indirect, like introduced weeds being spread by grazing, as if those weeds wouldn't spread anyhow.

What has not been addressed is why tortoises were still a common thing even after the grazing abuses of the old free range days in the late 1800's early 1900's.

Birdwatcher

You are repeating a lie.Bundy never said that.

I'm not repeating anything, and I'm not talking about what Bundy said or didn't say.

If you go back and read my first post on the subject, you'll see that.

The only thing I commented on was Derby Dude's statement to the effect that he agreed that black people in the US would probably be better off as slaves.

So take it up with him.

Got it.

I read the text of what Bundy said, and I do think the gist of it was taken out of context and seized on by the MSM, who definitely have an axe to grind here. I think I understand what he was trying to say, and that is, they traded one form of slavery for another.

If he'd just said that and stopped, he may have been OK.

But to go on and on, talking about how they "never learned to pick cotton," and "sit around with nothing to do??"

That's just foolish.

So I agree with the title of the thread. How many times have we seen someone say something like this that's racially charged and get lambasted for it? What on earth was he thinking?

Does he really think people want to hear his philosophy on subjects like this? The whole thing has obviously gone to his head.

Folks: Things are not quite as simple as acres per cow or cows per acre in desert realms.

I've been involved with cattle grazing studies where we tracked cattle movements via GPS collars in individual pastures as large as 366 square miles.

Cattle are extremely dependent on water, and it's rare to find them foraging more than about 1.5 miles from a water source. In the most extreme case (the 366 sq mile pasture), the cattle visited only about 15% of the total area available to them over a two month long grazing season. The most extreme measure obtained was a cow that ventured 4.5 miles out from the nearest water. Plotting of her data (hourly fixes) clearly showed her going on about a 36 hour walkabout where she ranged out, spent the night, and then hiked back to her habitual haunts. With only rare exceptions, desert grazing at it's best still involves areas of extreme over use and absolute non use within a single pasture.

We will always have a pie of extreme use around water.

An often suggested fix for overgrazing is simply to reduce stock numbers. This may rectify things out at the most extreme edges of the pie, but the remaining stock will still concentrate their use around water. If one wants to run more cows, then he must develop more water.

Livestock distribution issues have and will always be a significant thing for western stockmen. Over several years and studies in desert realms the most significant factors affecting cattle distribution were: elevation above or below surface water, horizontal distance to surface water, forage quality at specific sites (they like good green grass), and degree of slope (they will avoid steep slopes if possible).

Wildlife (deer, pronghorn, bighorn, elk, wild horses, etc) all exhibit the same behaviors although the dimensions and order of affecting variables do vary (i.e slope is meaningless to bighorn). In eastern Oregon we have millions acres one can search for years and never see a deer or pronghorn even though the groceries and cover are there. Add water to the equation, and they will come.

I just RUBBED this into a liberal's up turned nose.
POS bashing and throwing links around.
Cussing guns,ranchers,religion.
AND IT FELT GOOD

Well done!



Whereas the tortoise, independent of permanent water, famously hoards its water in its unusually large bladder.

This might explain the lack of simple black and white studies of tortoise populations under grazing vs. no grazing.

I'll say it again; I am Joe Conservationist, but arbitrarily denying folks their livelihood on such blatantly incomplete data is at best irresponsible and in the long-run a losing strategy.

Birdwatcher

Good info and Thanks for posting that.

All of that comes down to one thing though. Was or is Bundy overgrazing the land?

AFAIK, that's not the issue that started this whole mess. It was protection of desert tortoise habitat that the BLM used as a basis for reducing Bundy's grazing "rights".

IMHO, if Bundy can prove that he's been a good steward of the land, that he's not overgrazing, that turtles and cows can get along, then the feds should allow his family's cattle operation to continue.

There's no doubt that the feds have been heavy handed but this is something that can only be settled in a court of law. Bundy can whine about all he wants about the federal govt, state control of land, ride around waving an American flag, and give idiotic interviews but it will get him nowhere.

If Bundy is too stupid to go to court and seek a fair resolution, including re-payment of past grazing fees, then he deserves to lose it all.

I've just about lost all sympathy for his cause. Stupid people that do stupid things deserve what they get.

Thanks 1minute that's some useful information that I forget to take into consideration.

Without a first hand look at the property, I'd not even speculate.

There is still the issue though of unpaid fees. Had one been screwing the private sector to that degree for that many years, he would have had his assets taken and cleaned out of business in short order. I'm actually amazed government has exhibited its present degree of patience. People can raise families and die in less time. If the IRS would exhibit that same degree of patience with me, I'd quit paying taxes tomorrow, up my standard of living substantially, and die before they could collect.

Lastly, the turtle is small spuds compared to what may happen to us public land users if sage grouse get the official T & E label. I think review is coming within the year. Management, access, and who knows how many other activities will likely be affected on tens of millions of acres.

That's why so many people are working to find a solution to the sage grouse issue before it becomes a bigger problem. Some of the biggest corporations involved with extraction of resources are not supportive of any solutions, other than for sportsman to stop killing them, and have made that quit clear.