Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Input on which muzzle loader

ya , that kinda went to the way side some time ago , didnt it pappy

Interesting discussion, most of it anyway. And I'm not criticising or taking up for anybody. Just interested in what the current situation is. Since I recently purchased a CVA I'm curious about how the new rifles are tested. Just now I forwarded this comment and question to CVA and will post their response:

Recently I've come across a bit of the internet criticism CVA has been subjected to and have read your article "The Truth" in response. However, due to a lack of regulatory standards on muzzle loaders in general I am curious about proofing your guns. Is each individual muzzle loader proof fired or even fired? If not, what precautions do you use such as random testing, etc. I appreciate your time.

Again, in the interest of current information the article I referred to is HERE

Tried a cut and paste but it reads better to just click on the link.

not even TC or GM " Knight" test every barrel LOL

Pedersoli & Co. like all Italian firearms manufacturers, is required by law, to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy.

Today the replica manufacturers have a more difficult task is they want to meet the high standards of CIP (Permanent International Commission) proofing. The CIP lays down common rules and regulations for the proof of weapons and their ammunition in order to ensure the mutual recognition of Proof Marks by its member states. Fourteen countries are CIP Member States.

Each and every blackpowder firearm must pass a pressure proof test in the official CIP proof house of Gardone to receive the modern blackpowder proof marks. The official modern proof loads for .58 caliber rifles are quite close in weight to the 19th century proof loads being 15 g (231,5 grain) of blackpowder and 39 g (601 grain) in bullet weight. But the powder used today is much hotter than the 19th century U.S. Government musket powder (the modern proofing powder is the Swiss No. 2. 3Fg powder which is finer and stronger) and the barrels are not proofed in proofing machines but in the fully assembled (but white finish stage) rifles. After firing the barrel, the breech and the stock are inspected for any kind of cracks and damages. Only the spotless rifles will receive the final proof marks and only these rifles qualify for shipping to the customers all over the World.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/riv...ifle-muskets-in-the-1860s-and-today.html

Seems atleast one company or should i say country does require proof testing of any firearm sold or made in its country.

I wonder if you can buy a CVA there? I see Traditions imports and distributes some Italian made products.

Ive always wondered when you look at the Euro Apex model, they dont list a muzzleloader barrel anywhere on the Spanish website. Why is that? http://www.bergararifles.com/es_ES/rifles/detalle-rifle.php?rifle=Apex

Didnt T/C used to advertise, at least when they made lots of cool sidelocks, that they magnufluxed every barrel?

Wonder if they still do that?

you can buy CVA and traditions muzzleloaders in europe. They actually send them to the proof house to be tested at their 15% over max load levels. I had a german member over at my forum before he passed away and he was ordering both traditions and cva rifles without a problem and they went directly to the proof house.

That "reply" by CVA is a giant load of BS.

"Way back in 1997.......". Yeah okay. My a$$. Check the dates of failures/lawsuits and decide for yourself.

Also, check the dates of mfg. on these models and compare. Here is a list of CVAs known to fail that the company has gone to court over. It would be a MUCH shorter list if we listed the CVAs that did not fail. Sad but true:

Mountain Stalker
Pro Hunter
Optima Pro
Optima
Staghorn
Buckmaster
Apollo
Wolf
Mag Hunter
Eclipse
Bobcat
Silver Trophy Hunter
Kodiak
Kodiak Magnum
Firebolt
Gray Wolf
New Frontier

It just seems really odd that the USA website has a APEX ml barrel listed and the Europe website does not.

2muchgun, it doesnt matter whats listed. One reason cva killed the traditional line was they tired of people not cleaning their guns and the nipples would rot out and blow out. I actually emailed about a cva blazer and the first thing they wanted me to do want check the nipple threads for rust/pitted threads. If there was any, they wanted me to send it in for replacement of a new gun.

You have companies like GM that has 2 recalls now from my understanding, for installing the WRONG nipples into their barrels.

I have to wonder how many of the CVA failures were owner error?

I also wonder about other companies that might have the same failures that we don't hear about?

Research it. Please do tell.

I already have.

CVA is in a league of their own....

I have, but you won't find something that's hidden from the public.

Randy has made sure everybody knows about CVA, so it's all we find.

most gun blow ups are in fact user error. When you load 300 grains of T7 and it blows up, its YOUR fault. I know more facts about some of these cases than most of you here due to some folks I know through the system. Smokeless powder, double loads or short started projectiles are the main faults in muzzle loader failures.

I agree, and it's what makes me think all companies have this problem.

Got an answer back. No great detail. Do any other mfgs test every muzzleloader? Or is random selection the standard?

"You are perfectly safe in using your rifle. Always be sure that you are using the correct powder and the correct amount of powder. I would recommend using 100 grains of WhiteHots powder and a 295 grain Powerbelt hollow point. This has been a great combination to start with for many years. each individual gun is not test fired as this would require a complete cleaning of every rifle. Randomly picked rifles are however tested. Good luck this fall. have a wonderful day."

TC nor Knight test every barrel they make. I forget who it was, either bridges or wakeman actually responded to knight barrels and said "typically" they are magnafluxed. However, the word typically isnt an in between of Yes and No in my opinion.

In the old days, proof firing IMO was the standard due to the super soft butter steel they used in those days. Its not really needed with todays quality steels gun makers use today.

The Norm is batch testing .
IE a barrel or two will get chosen randomly to go under Proof . In theory as long as the same material is being used and there is a record of tolerances staying within speck , there would be little reason for the rest of the barrels to fall from proof .
As I said before some do no testing at all . Don Getz has made open statements as to what steel they use and that while they originally did test barrels early on , they have not tested barrels for years .
Colerain no longer breeches their barrels .. So ?
Im not sure what LC rice does . Both he and Getz breech and index their barrels to insure the plugs are fitted proper .
GM can say what ever they like . Through the years I have provided many GM barrels on my rifles . I don�t recall any that I didn�t have to re fit the plug .

In Europe, the ability to provide a proof stamp is contingent on those barrels passing proof . The company doesn�t control this . The proof house does in that they randomly select the barrels . If the barrel fails the government then yanks the companies ability to use the government authorized proof stamp . Which can mean a lose of export ability , fines and possible prosecution

As to what other country proofs every gun . Ironically India requires it . Every Firearm �to include muzzleloaders � manufactured be it by a company or individual , must be sent in to be proofed by the IOB . Along with the gun , there must be complete records on the manufacture of every part .
Frankly I was very surprised at the level of Inspection their government requires , considering the quality of what�s being imported ..

In the end though we all IMO should realize that a gun with a proof stamp on it , only means that it withstood proof at time of manufacture . It does not mean its still in proof or that it will stay in proof for ever .
Same goes for testing a barrel with a heavy charge , which by the way is only part of the proofing process . But just because that barrel held that high charge once . Does not mean it will hold that charge again

In the early '80's, I got a CVA .50 Hawkens. Worst POS gun I
ever owned. God/conscience would not allow me to sell it to
someone who might have gotten themselves severely hurt.

That being said, I know of several individuals who have gotten
CVA CF rifles in .45-70 and converted them to smokeless muzzle
loaders. They don't attempt to load as stout as those of us
with our Rem 700ml conversions or Savage 10MLII's, but still
end up with over 300yd capable rifles. I'm very tempted to
believe CVA has long seen the light that it is in their best
interests to make quality firearms. The Bergara barrels they
now use had their inspiration from Shilen and have become
very accurate, dependable and safe. The article which is still
on Chuck Hawk's site comes from relatively old information and
the author is known as a "legend in his own mind".