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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 254
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 254 |
Blow the critters lungs out with a pass through and it doesn't matter where the excess energy goes.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,289
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
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Didn't mean to imply the "pass through thing" was the end all in developing an optimum hunting round as there are a host of other variables that also come into play. Only meant to explain the physics of bullet penetration vs non - penetration and its effect on a target, be it a deer, phone book or anything else under the sun. That's all, but it does make for interesting conversation.
"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." John Stapp - "Stapp's Law"
"Klaatu barada nikto"
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
After thought; doesn't the whole "for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction" thing suggest that an animal would be effected by the energy of the bullet to the same degree (or less since the bullet losses velocity) as the shooter was to the recoil of the rifle when he fired it. Am I wrong? I've shot some pretty big rifles, but none big enough for the recoil to kill me.
Second after thought: Ever see a deer knocked sideways by a bullet? Neither have I. You're getting close with the physics. It should be momentum where you wrote energy.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,289
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,289 |
I guess an interesting experiment to try for the "equal opposite reaction thing" would be to remove the recoil pad from your rifle and the place a bullet between your shoulder and the butt with the pointy part facing your flesh. Actually do not do this as it would likely conclude with a trip to the doctor, but it does illustrate the point (sorry for the bad pun).
Last edited by S99VG; 10/17/14.
"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." John Stapp - "Stapp's Law"
"Klaatu barada nikto"
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,508
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2011
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The bottom line is if you do enough damage to the animal's vitals it dies. In this age of super magnums the old calibers (and bows) still work if the hunter hits the animal in a vital spot. The only advantage to the magnum is the hunter can do damage to the vitals further away and a heck of a lot of people who have magnums aren't good enough marksmen to do that. Getting close enough to the animal to use the older calibers is a major part of the fun of hunting. David
wyo1895 With Savage never say never. For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you. [email protected]
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
I'm out of phase with magnum mania. I don't even load my 250 Savage to full throttle all the time.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,508
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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My love of magnums took a swan dive when I killed that cow elk last year with my 87 year old 99G in .300. That's why I only took a .300 Savage with me to hunt caribou earlier this month. Both of those animals came to me. That proves that 99's attract critters. They're scared of magnums and go the other way. David
wyo1895 With Savage never say never. For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you. [email protected]
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,804 |
My 300 will be heavy in the rotation this year. It's not a Savage rifle, it's a Remington 700 Classic.
I have a very nice load for it using a 155 Grain Berger VLD seated long. Not old school, but quite effective.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 803
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 803 |
150 Grain Sierra Pro Hunter. Very accurate and deadly on deer, complete pass through on broadside shots. Also will penetrate 4 feet of deer on frontal shots and wind up in the hind quarter under the hide or next to a broken femur. Potent deer medicine.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 803
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 803 |
MW406, you can't kill Mule deer that Big with a 303 Savage. You need at least a 300 Wiz Bang Magnum. Very nice deer and a great Caliber.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,289
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
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Isn't it illegal or something to shoot a .300 through anything other than a 99?
Last edited by S99VG; 10/19/14.
"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." John Stapp - "Stapp's Law"
"Klaatu barada nikto"
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 852
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 852 |
300Savage, I'm still trying for a big ol' six point bull elk with a .303. I'm assuming that since it was supposed to be such a good moose killer, it'll work fine. I'm headed out for antelope this week, debating a .303 or a .22 High Power. Leanin' towards the High Power.
Back to the original question, I really like 165 grain Partitions in my .300 Savages for everything. Probably "overkill" for smaller deer, but what the heck, you only live once.
S99VG, it my not be illegal, but some things just ain't right.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,733
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,733 |
That is a really nice Buck!
Here are my thoughts on pass through. The trauma causing potential of a passing through bullet has been described to me as "hydrostatic shock" as written about in the web site of Terminal Ballistics. The exiting bullet will develop a negative pressure in the body cavity and will in essence suck or aspirate tissue with it as it leaves the body cavity. I think the terminal ballistic guy said about 2000 fps was needed for this process.
I also can say when I was a Tanker on the M60A3 we were told the Sabot round we would fire would penetrate the targets armor and "suck" the enemy crew members out the exit hole of the projectile. This was a very "small" round compared to the Heat and Willy P rounds we also shot/ carried.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Steelhead - not funny bleep, just physics. Its a matter of transferring the energy into the target. If the bullet goes through through the target then some of that energy goes with it. That doesn't mean its not enough energy to get the job done given you use an appropriate cartridge. Think of that it like this, if your 32 S&W hits the target with 1000-lbs of energy and does not penetrate then the target absorbs the full 1000-lbs. If it exits the target then the math is 1000-lbs subtract the amount of energy the bullet carries with it down range. Say 1000-lbs minus 500-lbs of energy that is being carried downrange in the bullet. All the target did was to slow the bullet down. It did not stop it. That doesn't mean your "32" isn't sufficient for getting the job done, but it would be better to use a .300 instead. My apologies to all for getting off topic again. Best make sure your F&S subscription is up to date, I'd hate to miss out on more pearls.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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