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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,042
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,042 |
Once flew with a fella that got his ass shot down one day and was ejected on impact. He awakened face down in the dirt with his right forearm under his chest, hand on the butt of his issue S&W .38 revolver. It was loaded with FMJ ball ammo.
He was getting poked in the backside by bayonets amidst hysterical Vietnamese laughter and made a choice based on the premise that he was not going to wind up as a POW. He rolled over onto his back and shot all three of them before they could react in meaningful fashion. He said all shots were center of mass in the torso, double action. Uncle Ho's heroes did not move after they hit the ground he said.
He and his gunner were extracted a few minutes later after a call to "higher" authorities on his EMRG radio.
If you see him soon, please let him know he did that all wrong. Travis I thought so too, but any day of the week I'd rather be lucky than good. Or dead.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,393
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,393 |
I have a S&W 9 mm, a 45 1911. I carry a model 19, cause I reload and brass is hard to find when you are in a hurry or stressed. If I missed 6 times, the scoundrel would likely be long gone.
If I was hunting I'd be carrying a 44 also in revolver.
If I had only those first two that I mentioned, the choice would be the 1911. I don't want to make what I was shooting at mad, I prefer dead. I don't have much faith in the 9 mm.
BTW, the scounderals I would be shooting at would be 4 legged.
Last edited by Bugger; 11/21/14.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
..... He rolled over onto his back and shot all three of them before they could react in meaningful fashion. He said all shots were center of mass in the torso, double action. .....
If you see him soon, please let him know he did that all wrong. Travis yeah, I can't believe he went D.A. on those guys. And all center mass. What a lucky SOB.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,098
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,098 |
For those who think you have to have 15 rounds minimum. Can you point to ONE incident where a single person, civilian, not LE or military, engaged and hit more than 10 people, and survived the encounter? How about one civilian who actually used two 15 mags in a gunfight in self defense? Kevinthose have already been posted. For one, remember the homeowner in Fla who emptied a mag from an m16 and changed magazines and continued the fight The jewelry store ownet who ised multiple firearms in the same fight?
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,039
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,039 |
Interesting stats: .357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105 # of hits - 179 % of hits that were fatal - 34% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7 % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% One-shot-stop % - 44% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf9mm Luger # of people shot - 456 # of hits - 1121 % of hits that were fatal - 24% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45 % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% One-shot-stop % - 34% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf45 ACP # of people shot - 209 # of hits - 436 % of hits that were fatal - 29% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08 % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% One-shot-stop % - 39% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpufWhat I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. This would lead me to believe that while the 9mm is more popular the people using it are not as well trained. The percentage of failures is very similar between the 9 and 45, 13% vs 14%. I don't understand the difference between one-shot stop and actually incapacitated by one shot, but the 9mm and 45 seem fairly close and the .357 does pull ahead. I can not get to the web site here at work, I will look at it at home. Overall to me it doesn't look like there is that much difference between the rounds.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 |
What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,584
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,584 |
What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls. 
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,039
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,039 |
Poster: ltppowell
That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls.
Yeah that must be it. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
Yeah. What Pat said.
ROR!!
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls. I would have said the same thing but I wasn't as brave as you are.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474 |
What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls. I've said before and will say again.. sometimes its not the amount of recoil thats harder to make work for you... its the type... or type of gun or accuracy of overall gun and ammo combo. Pat... I hear you on the 40 vs 25. But given 100 circumstances of same exact shot... which would you guess would come out on top.... I can add this... on deer, a 9mm 100 grain XTP out of a 32-20 plays hell with all the deer/pigs I"ve shot with it so far... none made it over about 40ish yards...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,659
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,659 |
Interesting stats: .357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105 # of hits - 179 % of hits that were fatal - 34% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7 % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% One-shot-stop % - 44% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf9mm Luger # of people shot - 456 # of hits - 1121 % of hits that were fatal - 24% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45 % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% One-shot-stop % - 34% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf45 ACP # of people shot - 209 # of hits - 436 % of hits that were fatal - 29% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08 % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% One-shot-stop % - 39% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf ![[Linked Image]](http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png) I knew someone would pull out an "incapacitation" chart. If you believe all that crap is actually scientific, I suggest you review your high school books on scientific method. And just as sure, I'd knew you'd pipe up to refute it using the "oh that's not scientific bullshit". Bottom line is the charts are illustrative of events that took place out in the real world and not in a controlled environment full of geeks and pocket protectors. Yet not one serious law enforcement agency IN THE ENTIRE WORLD subscribes to the statistical approach; ever wonder why that is? I'll tell you, it's because it's not freaking science. What constitutes inclusion is arbitrary, and the databases are HIGHLY suspect. There's only one guy who knows if the database of shooting is real or not, and that's the guy who wrote it. If that database of incidents is not open for fully peer review, it's absolutely meaningless. So what you're reading is one guy's opinion from a database that may or may not really exist...yeah, that's scientific. I guess you're just smarter than every LE agency in the world, that's why you believe in such "statistics" "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162 |
What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls. And Travis.
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something,
make it a hole to remember.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,884
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,884 |
What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls. Sounds like I have the right gun 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
There are still those who think there is a big difference between 9mm & .45 ACP...I'm still trying to figure out if there is any meaningful difference other than testosterone.
That said, I carry a .45 ACP but I do so because I like the gun, not because I feel the .45 really brings anything more meaningful to the table in modern defensive hollow point ammunition. You get a little more frontal diameter with the .45 ACP vs the 9mm which will give you better barrier penetration in 124+P or 147 standard pressure loadings.
I think it's WELL proven that any of the modern defensive cartridges will get the job done. It is also well established that most modern pistols are more than adequately reliable for concealed carry purposes.
So pick the gun you like in the cartridge you like. This is so easy, I'll leave it to everyone's imagination, but all I can tell you is there was a huge onslaught of units emptying out the Navy's arsenal in Indianapolis of retired 1911s because the 9MM Beretta SUCKS as a stopper. That is why as much as I love my 1911s, I know carry either a Glock 21 or a 31 for the simple reason of more is better. The 9 has never impressed me, then again, I will defer to the experts here. Yes, 9mm's suck when loaded with hardball ammo. I'm certain not one person the Fire would carry a 9mm, or even a .45 for that matter with Hardball unless required to do so by law. The only people how usually choose hardball are the hoodrats who are too cheap and stupid to know any better. Hardball usually feeds reliably. You can't count on hollow point to feed in all situations.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474 |
Thats not true. But it can be in factory guns and without ammo testing...
I loaded a LOT of HP bullets in years gone by for shooting in my 45. More than a buttload of 185 jhps in my youth... never had a failure to feed with them.
I had polished the ramp a hair though....
I've also seen jams with hardball....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,584
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,584 |
Interesting stats: .357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105 # of hits - 179 % of hits that were fatal - 34% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7 % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% One-shot-stop % - 44% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf9mm Luger # of people shot - 456 # of hits - 1121 % of hits that were fatal - 24% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45 % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% One-shot-stop % - 34% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf45 ACP # of people shot - 209 # of hits - 436 % of hits that were fatal - 29% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08 % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% One-shot-stop % - 39% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf I knew someone would pull out an "incapacitation" chart. If you believe all that crap is actually scientific, I suggest you review your high school books on scientific method. And just as sure, I'd knew you'd pipe up to refute it using the "oh that's not scientific bullshit". Bottom line is the charts are illustrative of events that took place out in the real world and not in a controlled environment full of geeks and pocket protectors. Yet not one serious law enforcement agency IN THE ENTIRE WORLD subscribes to the statistical approach; ever wonder why that is? I'll tell you, it's because it's not freaking science. What constitutes inclusion is arbitrary, and the databases are HIGHLY suspect. There's only one guy who knows if the database of shooting is real or not, and that's the guy who wrote it. If that database of incidents is not open for fully peer review, it's absolutely meaningless. So what you're reading is one guy's opinion from a database that may or may not really exist...yeah, that's scientific. I guess you're just smarter than every LE agency in the world, that's why you believe in such "statistics" "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli Must be why the likes of the FBI, SS and most PDs in the US don't use the 9MM?
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
[quote=rost495]Thats not true. But it can be in factory guns and without ammo testing...
I loaded a LOT of HP bullets in years gone by for shooting in my 45. More than a buttload of 185 jhps in my youth... never had a failure to feed with them.
I had polished the ramp a hair though...(.quote)
I remember going to a bowling pin match about 30 years ago with a Colt Series 70 45 acp.
I had polished the feed ramp and did what we called a duty tune.
After the match was over a gentleman offered to buy my pistol.
when he was asked why he wanted it he responded
"Yours was the only one who didn't jam."
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,454
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,454 |
Glock 26 with a G19 mag as a spare.
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