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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Whiskey must be the other....
Not all that bad. Those morons can't make whiskey. Dwayne is reason #2. (Not a schit joke) Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Non-FUBAR question: I promise, I'm plenty open minded. Serious question: what is the advantage of Mils vs MOA? Non-FUBAR answer: Nice even numbers and factors of 10.
Using MOA to measure group size and scope tracking, you're looking at 1.047" at 100 yards. Not so easy to use that factor in the field. So, say you're testing your scope for tracking and click adjustment values, and you decide to set up a target at 100 yards. Your paper target has a 1" grid system. You dial up 8 MOA, and expect to see a POI shift of how many inches? 8.376". Better bring your dial caliper with you, or else set up the target at 95.51 yards to make each MOA adjustment an even 1". In contrast, using Mils you would set up the target at 100 meters, and each 0.1 Mil adjustment would move the POI by 1 cm, which can easily be used in a grid pattern when you print your targets. So you dial 1 Mil, and you expect to see a POI shift of exactly 10 cm. Nice even number.
Factors of 10- when dialing your elevation turret, with MOA you are typically working with 0.25 or 0.125 MOA clicks. Additionally, MOA turrets usually have 15 or 25 MOA per revolution. Suppose you spot a nice buck at whatever distance you like (that requires dialing your elevation turret), and your dope sheet says you need 16.8 MOA elevation correction. You think to yourself "okay, so I need to dial one complete revolution, which gives me 15 MOA, then an extra 1 MOA, then an extra 3 clicks, which gets me to 16.75 MOA. That's as close to 16.8 MOA as I can get." Each click is a quarter of an MOA, which you have to reconcile in your head. Now with Mils, each click is 0.1 Mil, and Mil turrets usually have 5 or 10 Mils per revolution. This is much easier and more intuitive for your brain to work with. You need 0.4 Mils, that's 4 clicks. Need 5.6 Mils, dial the turret to the "5", and then 6 more clicks. How about 21.2 Mils? Using a 10 Mil per revolution turret, we spin 2 complete revolutions for 20 Mil, and another 1 Mil and 2 clicks. We are trained to work with factors of 10 because of the number system that we have in place- money, decimals, percentage, nearly everything we learn to use in society with regards to numbers, deals in factors of 10. So naturally, it's more intuitive for us to think in increments of 0.1, 1, and 10, than 0.25, 1, and 15. If you think about it, what's easier and quicker for you to remember, figure, and dial into your scope, 34.6 MOA, or 10.1 Mils? Smaller numbers are usually easier to remember and process.
In fairness, I have and use LR scopes with both Mil and MOA turrets/reticles. Both work equally effectively, but the Mil system requires less mental processing power to work with, and subsequently takes slightly less time between spotting the target and getting a corrected shot off. Amazing, eh? There were several people pointing you in this direction, and once you dropped the defensive dumbass-itude and ASKED what the difference/advantages were and why folks were making that recommendation, you got a specific answer. Of course, it took how many times to get you to understand that people were trying to give you good advice from the get-go?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,015 |
For the super dumb and simple minded, a yardage turret set up for the load being used isn't a bad option... smile This allows one to forget all the math !  Where I hunt, it's not too uncommon to be in a situation where you "gotta shoot or get off the pot". No time to start looking at cheat sheets or doing math problems...  Sometimes it pays to be dumb...  DF
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,601
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,601 |
This. I have this exact set-up. There is more than one right answer. If you don't plan on changing loads, custom yardage dial is as quick as ranging the distance and holding for windage. Up and down is easy. Left and right is voodoo. OP, if you will be civil and check your 'tude, there is a wealth of knowledge here from most of these guys. 
Nut
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,474
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,474 |
As the previous post stated, JohnBurns, thanks for the explaination of MIL vs MOA, makes total sense. You may have just changed my mind as to which direction to go with my scope. John Burns didn't answer schit! Jordan Smith did. He's one of two reasons we haven't destroyed Canaduh. Travis LOL, you couldn't even if you wanted to! There are Muslims living here.....Obama would never allow it.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
LOL, you couldn't even if you wanted to!
There are Muslims living here.....Obama would never allow it. I was referring to American citizens. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,079
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,079 |
The way you phrased your question still has me wondering what you are asking- no wonder you are getting some many different pieces of advice. I do think 800 yards is too far to "hold" by the time you get that far, especially with rifle that isn't particularly flat, any little difference in distance means something.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,122
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,122 |
Might be because your original question was FUBAR and folks were trying to offer advice without calling you a dumbass.
I doubt that will happen again, as advice bounces off and the dumbass part seems a given.
4ager, you said the man was a dumbass in part because he wants to dial windage. I haven't read anywhere in this thread where the man made any such remark.(Dumbass) Shod
Last edited by Shodd; 03/01/15.
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Joined: May 2014
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,122 |
The way you phrased your question still has me wondering what you are asking- no wonder you are getting some many different pieces of advice. I do think 800 yards is too far to "hold" by the time you get that far, especially with rifle that isn't particularly flat, any little difference in distance means something. The man was asking about a scope with a reticle that would facilitate 800 yds without dialing. There are plenty of reticles that do just that. A Zeiss scope with the RZ8 reticle would be one example. Shod
Last edited by Shodd; 03/01/15.
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,079
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,079 |
The way you phrased your question still has me wondering what you are asking- no wonder you are getting some many different pieces of advice. I do think 800 yards is too far to "hold" by the time you get that far, especially with rifle that isn't particularly flat, any little difference in distance means something. The man was asking about a scope with a reticle that would facilitate 800 yds without dialing. There are plenty of reticles that do just that. A Zeiss scope with the RZ8 reticle would be one example. Shod I didn't get that from his question.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,122
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,122 |
and an MOA reticle that will allow me to hold elevation, Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 94
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 94 |
What's y'all's thoughts on the Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 4.5-14x50mm FFP M5?
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 563
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 563 |
What's y'all's thoughts on the Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 4.5-14x50mm FFP M5? I have had this exact scope with both the Mil-dot and TMR reticles...neither works at all for hunting. Once that sun starts to set the reticle becomes unusable in the field (too thin)...and they don't offer illumination with the M5 turrets. It is also overpriced for the glass quality - it certainly is not extra low dispersion glass and looses contrast in poor lighting.
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