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Yup. I have a compressed neck nerve that gives me vertigo thanks to just a standard helmet and mask. And I only pulled 5 Gs or so as an instructor pilot, often on two flight s day, however. Fifteen or 20 5G events a day is rough. I also got a hernia from it, but that's not the helmet's fault.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
This:
"The clear implication of the RAND study is that the F-35 is very likely to wind up facing many more “up close and personal” opponents than its proponents suggest, while dealing with effective beyond-visual-range infrared-guided missiles as an added complication. Unlike the F-22, the F-35 is described as “double inferior” to modern SU-30 family fighters within visual range combat; thrust and wing loading issues are summed up in one RAND background slide as “can’t [out]turn, can’t [out]climb, can’t [out]run.”

And it sounds like the "Chick" standards were applied to make it look better:
"The second issue that deserves especial mention is that key aerial combat standards have been lowered, following initial tests. All F-35s will sit at 5.0g or less sustained turn performance – a figure that places them in a class with 1960s era planes like the F-5 or F-4 Phantom, instead of modern designs like the F-16. Acceleration is also poorer, compared to a reference F-16C Block 50 with AMRAAM missiles on its wingtips zooming from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2.

The USAF’s F-35A dropped the most, from an expected 5.3g – 4.6g in sustained turns. Acceleration will take 8 seconds longer than the F-16."

I must be psychic... or a woman; I foretold this HERE years ago. The plane is a pig and like Rocky says "waiting to be roasted"...


In the Phantom, our best sustained turn rate was at around 430-450 kts at 6.5 "G's" depending on the model and at low altitude you could hold that "G" and climb. We shot for the same "G" in the Tomcat but closer to around 350 kts IIRC.

But sustained "G" isn't the only factor..the biggest are sustained turn rate and radius and instantaneous turn rate and radius.The Phantom's turn rate and radius weren't so hot so we used tactics to try to stay out of a turning fight. We used those big J-79's to use the vertical and/or extend away so we'd have room get turned around and shoot the bogey in the face with a Sparrow or, later with AIM 9 L or M.

Against a better turner with forward quarter capability (F-16 with AIM-9 L or M), by the time you got turned around HE could be already turned around and have a missile headed your way.

The A version of the Tomcat that I flew was much better but still not in the same league as the later generations.

The Israelis used the gun a lot because the adversaries they were going against didn't have much ACM training, weren't maneuvering really hard and were essentially "grapes" PLUS the Israelis didn't want to waste a 'Winder (1/4 million bucks at the time) or Sparrow (1/2 millon) on easy targets. IF, and it's a big IF, an adversary knows you're there AND he knows what he's doing, it's hard to get bullets on him. Heck, I've seen guys try to shoot a non-maneuvering banner and get no hits.

Be that as it may, I think performance wise, we're taking a big step backwards. Technology is great but it's not everything. When one or two bogeys make it past the initial barage of missiles it could easily get into a turning fight and get ugly pretty quickly.





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Originally Posted by RockyRaab
Yup. I have a compressed neck nerve that gives me vertigo thanks to just a standard helmet and mask. And I only pulled 5 Gs or so as an instructor pilot, often on two flight s day, however. Fifteen or 20 5G events a day is rough. I also got a hernia from it, but that's not the helmet's fault.


I can sympathize. My last tour was in the training command and we generally flew three ACM hops a day. It was a lot of fun but I, too, have some pinched nerves in the neck and lower back problems.

When I first went to my pain doctor, he asked, "have you had an accident or something that might have caused the problems?" When I answered, "well I was a fighter pilot for 21 years", he gave a knowing nod and said, "that could do it."


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The stenosis in my neck SUCKS nowadays. If I turn a certain way, my left shoulder goes numb, and my arm tingles. 697 traps I'm sure didn't help. On the Israelis, they hosted us back in 85 when we could still pull into Haifa and showed us lots of Gun Camera film. When we asked why they closed to guns so much, the IAF Col just smiled and said "it's more macho" smile

Last edited by jorgeI; 07/01/15.

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F-35A: $98M (low rate initial production and not including the engine, full production in 2018 to be $85M)
F-35B: US$104M (low rate initial production and not including the engine)
F-35C: US$116M (low rate initial production and not including the engine)

Note that the prices for the F-35 do not include the engine, which means that the cost is for an aircraft suitable for static display, not a flyable a/c.


F-22 $150 million (flyaway cost for FY2009)


F-16C/D: US$18.8 million (1998 dollars)

Given that it is possible to acquire five F-16's for less than one F-35 and have money left over why are we even thinking of the F-35.
Yep! As stated previously the F-35 is the poster child for the military/industrial complex.

I spent 12 years in the F-16 program and while the F-16 may not do everything right it is still the best "bang for the buck" out there. Why not "superiority through numbers".

drover

Last edited by drover; 07/01/15. Reason: clarity

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The F16 easily smokes this piece of junk.


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How is it at CAS - loiter time, ordnance payload, survivability in a high AA threat area? I'm not trying to be mean to the F16, it is a real little hot rod fighter and one of my personal favorites. But the role is CAS, not air superiority. And apparently the F22 is the new undisputed world champion in that arena.

I still think a sh*tload of relatively inexpensive drones - locally controlled, remote controlled from afar, semi-autonomous or a mixture of the three - combined with some lesser number of high tech manned aircraft is the way to go. Or develop stand off munitions good and accurate enough that "CAS" platforms never get within 5 miles of the FEBA (do they still call it that?)

With the state of AA anything that flies and can be seen or painted is going to get shot down eventually. Super $$ high $$ tech $$ is great but all wars are wars of attrition and the lower to the ground you go the higher that attrition rate is likely to be. Keep the super high tech stuff up high. Down low use a huge amount of "good enough" stuff that can be manufactured in sufficient numbers to replace the inevitable losses and not double the national debt in the process. And, save a bunch of expensive pilots' lives in the process.


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Originally Posted by RockyRaab
My analogy of the gunless fighters of 1965 wasn't so much about guns, but GunGeek's comment about all future combat being Beyond Visual Range.

That might be the idea and the ideal, but EVERYTHING in combat turns to ohsheet no matter what you planned. If the F-35 is indeed a pig in a dogfight, sooner or later, an F-35 jock is going to find himself trying to turn with an adversary - and becoming roast pork.



This x 1000



You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Can the F-35 program, buy more F-16s and use some of the saved money to upgrade the A-10 - a real CAS a/c.
For some information about how good the F-16 can be in multiple roles take time to read up on the Israeli version.

drover


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If anyone wants to read a LONG thread (going on for 4 years now) by current AF pilots, including a couple guys who've actually flown the F-35:

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/topic/18043-f-35-lightning-info/


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Very enjoyable thread. My thanks to all who have posted with their experiences.


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F-35 Brewster Buffalo.







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I googled "israeli f16 close air support" and found a few articles on the subject. The Israelis definitely have mastered that aircraft in the CAS role. Their Pillar of Fire operation in Gaza showed some impressive accuracy and air/ground coordination. Some other articles on CAS in general pretty much mimiced a lot of the usual discussions for and against each of the aircraft. "Yeah, it (F16, F15E, A10, etc) can do this but it can't do that". Lots of outright prejudice for favorite platforms seems to be floating around among the experts as well - gee, who'da thunk? wink

What I got from those articles was that ordnance developments could be as much of a factor in CAS as the platform delivering them. One commenter on an article wrote, "The best close air support may be artillery, targeted by UAVs and supplied by unmanned helicopters."

Another thing I got and that was mentioned as a criteria for retiring the "beloved A10" was that we haven't had to face a "contested environment" in the life of the aircraft. An F35 might not be a dog fighter but a squadron of A10's would not fare well against a flight of high performance air superiority fighters either.

And not trying to be sarcastic, but it looks like any of our fighters armed with precision weapons can do very well in CAS against a low tech enemy armed only with AK's or light machine guns.

My worry quite blatantly is China with a secondary eye on Russia. The US military has not faced a technologically and logistically equal foe since WWII. Our ground and naval forces have not had to contend with a serious air attack threat since 1945 as well. I can predict the sneers already against the quality of their tech, particularly Russian. But the Chinese aren't stupid and their ability to mass produce goods is increasing while ours is decreasing. The Germans may have sneered at the build quality of a T34 and joked about our Ronsonols, right up until they faced thousands and thousands of them.

Right now our high tech is an excellent force multiplier. It would be a fool who doesn't think the Chinese are developing every way they can think of to counter that high tech. They launch how many cyber attacks against us each day? Thousands is the number I've heard. all it would take is one or two getting through to the right place.

I'm all for advanced weapons but like you, I want to see us maintain the ability to field large numbers of weapons to counter inevitable losses instead of a few that could conceivably be countered by one technological breakthrough.


Anyway, this is all really interesting to talk about. I learn new things all the time here.


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Just between the bunch here and me.... I believe a lot of the F35b is being to supply new NATO country carriers. NATO taking a larger role around the world. I know the Brits are building two new Carriers around the F35b, and believe Canada will be building or retrofitting some of Frances Mistrals. Japan I believe is also working on new carrier designs. All of these will be equipped with the F35b. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear in the next couple years Germany will be rebuilding a small fleet again.

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Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
But the role is CAS, not air superiority. And apparently the F22 is the new undisputed world champion in that arena.



The AF would [bleep] a brick if we used a 200M dollar jet for CAS unless it was using standoff stuff. We built I think a total of 178 22, and those I think will be tightly administered and used in an Air Superiority role only where it has no equal. CAS has always been a dirty business and A-10s, F-16s & 18s are designed to be expendable in that role. Use a mix bag for CAS and CAP and leave the 22s for BARCAP. The 35, anyway u cut it is an expensive white elephant, problem is, we are out of options.


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And that is it in a nutshell.

My expertise is 40 years out of date, but back then I was a CAS guy. A very expendable part, as I realized even then. It is indeed a down and dirty, eyeball-to-eyeball, all bets off environment where accuracy and timeliness are everything. There is no perfect aircraft for that job, only adequate ones.

In the end, we will have spent trillions of dollars and decades of time on an aircraft that may end up having little or no useful lifetime simply because we took far too long to get it there. The jocks who fly it may come to appreciate it, they may learn to use it in ways that the engineers never foresaw, and it may turn out to be more or less adequate. But it won't ever be anything better than that.


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Just to clarify - I meant the F22 is the current king of air superiority, not CAS. Looking back those two quoted sentences could be taken ambiguously.


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I wish to God they'd give CAS back to the Army.

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The army never had it


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The Army had the whole freakin Air Force... grin

Phil

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