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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,772
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,772 |
Travis, welcome back..Things were too calm with you away....
Molon Labe
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Thanks WCH. Should be back to killing stuff by Saturday. Grin...
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,104
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,104 |
That reminds, your a bad influence (LOL). I think I am going to get a ctr.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895 |
Why not give people the option of buying and using what works for them from an approved list? In theory and maybe with a large dept that gives a uniform allowance I think it would work. But the problem around here was no one wants to spend their own money on something for work. 6 months before I left were were authorized to purchase Sig P226s. Only 3 out of 28 officers did. It also becomes a budgetary issue. Let's say we approve 7 different firearms. That means the instructor has to potentially be sent to 7 different schools to learn manual of arms, not to mention armorers schools The beauty of a modular system, fits more people plus only one pistol for the armerors to learn and deal with. The best of both worlds.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
That reminds, your a bad influence (LOL). I think I am going to get a ctr. Buy. But only if Gibson is on board with the idea. His gun reviews are UBER! Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,522
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,522 |
I don't really get the "modular" aspect as being a neccessity
As i've always said with cops. If you can't qualify/ handle the issued gun then the problem is you, not the gun-go find another job I've been a police firearms instructor for 24 years. No gun is a good fit for everybody. Good outfits issue a gun and have an 'approved list' of reliable, reputable alternatives for those that the issue sidearm simply doesn't fit. They still have to qualify with it. Most people can qualify if they will apply the basics of marksmanship, accept constructive criticism and accept the fact that some undertakings involve a little effort and discomfort. Some are unwilling and a tiny percentage are incapable. I cull those PDQ. I have said for decades that if puppy soldiers and policemen can't break it, it can't be broke. I don't care about the gun being a good fit for everyone. i care about having to be at the arbitration table because a 5'2 100 pound female thought our Glock 21s were to big for her and kicked too hard for her to qualify with, and according to her lawyer it was the gun's fault she didn't meet her probationary requirements and, thus her employment terminated The agency shouldn't have to shell out for different guns to "fit" everyone individually...you can either cut it with what is given, or find a new job So, you're saying that a 5'2" girlcop should wear the same size shoes a 6'2" oldtimer should wear? One size fits all, right?
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,612
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,612 |
Why not give people the option of buying and using what works for them from an approved list? In theory and maybe with a large dept that gives a uniform allowance I think it would work. But the problem around here was no one wants to spend their own money on something for work. 6 months before I left were were authorized to purchase Sig P226s. Only 3 out of 28 officers did. It also becomes a budgetary issue. Let's say we approve 7 different firearms. That means the instructor has to potentially be sent to 7 different schools to learn manual of arms, not to mention armorers schools We issue Glock 22s, transitioning to 17s, but we authorize any "handgun of quality make, in calibers 9mm, 357 Sig, .40, .45, or 10mm." More than half of our agency of 50ish carry their own, primarily in 9mm. It has been this way for well over twenty years, and it has not been any sort of issue. One size does not fit all...or even most..
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,691
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,691 |
I have NO idea how my agency has gotten away with the policy of "Shoot one gun or go home" but it's been that way, to the best of my knowledge, since 1948.
Back when we shot 10mm's, lots of smaller female types were culled out of the program in the range week.
Even now, with the Glock 35 in 40 S&W, we still end up losing one every now and then.
I'm not saying it's right, just that we've somehow managed to hold onto that precept.
I'd just as soon everyone have something on their belt that they can actually hit a bull in the A$$ with.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
One of the other points about the new military pistol program that I caught via the intel and hasn't been discussed yet is the fact that they want the new modular system to be non-caliber specific.
To me, this speaks to a longer term sidearm that can start as a 9x19 and potentially got to other calibers should the situation dictate a change.
Not only does an armorer now have the ability to service only one pistol, and therefore get really good at it, and the parts so easily interchange that an armorer probably isn't even necessary, but it gives longer term cartridge flexibility if/should the U.S. military decide to run another round.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,895 |
One of the other points about the new military pistol program that I caught via the intel and hasn't been discussed yet is the fact that they want the new modular system to be non-caliber specific.
To me, this speaks to a longer term sidearm that can start as a 9x19 and potentially got to other calibers should the situation dictate a change.
Not only does an armorer now have the ability to service only one pistol, and therefore get really good at it, and the parts so easily interchange that an armorer probably isn't even necessary, but it gives longer term cartridge flexibility if/should the U.S. military decide to run another round. Exactly
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
To me, this speaks to a longer term sidearm that can start as a 9x19 and potentially got to other calibers should the situation dictate a change. Delta went to .40's a few years back in hopes of better performance in the field. They were carrying some hi-cap STI's in .40 S&W, but they dropped it due to difficulty in re-supply when abroad. If they do indeed go to a pistol that can be converted to different cartridges, then they really need to address the supply issue. But if they went with something truly modular (like what they're looking at), then I don't see any reason why they couldn't switch all the way up to .45 ACP; which would take care of the supply issue. Back in the '70's and '80's the US Army did some really neat stuff with the .45 ACP to improve barrier performance. If we stuck with just 9mm and .45 ACP and perhaps introduced one of those higher performance .45 ACP rounds, we'd probably be in good shape with minimal impact to our supply lines.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
To me, this speaks to a longer term sidearm that can start as a 9x19 and potentially got to other calibers should the situation dictate a change. Delta went to .40's a few years back in hopes of better performance in the field. They were carrying some hi-cap STI's in .40 S&W, but they dropped it due to difficulty in re-supply when abroad. If they do indeed go to a pistol that can be converted to different cartridges, then they really need to address the supply issue. But if they went with something truly modular (like what they're looking at), then I don't see any reason why they couldn't switch all the way up to .45 ACP; which would take care of the supply issue. Back in the '70's and '80's the US Army did some really neat stuff with the .45 ACP to improve barrier performance. If we stuck with just 9mm and .45 ACP and perhaps introduced one of those higher performance .45 ACP rounds, we'd probably be in good shape with minimal impact to our supply lines. Hell, it could be a round none of us even know of or think of right now, but the flexibility is key.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Off topic, but I'm 99% sure that Delta never fielded STI 2011s.
I know that Delta tested some STI 5" Tactical .40s but couldn't keep them running. A few were sent to Dave Dawson and he diagnosed the mags as the problem and sent them tuned mags to use / try.
Delta didn't keep or issue those STI .40s but sent them back (all thrown together in one crate). STI then sold them at a pretty steep discount because they were so beat up. I've shot two of those Delta reject pistols.
So I don't know if Delta ever fielded any STIs or not, but knowing everything else I just doubt it.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
Maybe they didn't field them, but I do recall ammo availability as being one reason they dumped the .40. They had Glock .40's also and dropped them and went with G-19's.
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