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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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i shouldn't admit to this but okay.
try a 1900 vintage breakdown winchester in 38.55 with a real loose buttstock. It had loosen up around the tang area.
couple of toothpicks stuck in there tightened in up just fine.
I am going to have to fix it properly one of these days.
or leave it that way so some guy 50years from now can go wtf?
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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the subject of 94's kind of pains me. There is one laying up on the side of the mountain someplace in the bradshaws, slipping out of my dad's saddle scabbard in the 30's.
I use to go looking for the thing.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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It seems to me that in 1894 the Model '94 was pretty much state-of-the-art. And a leap ahead of what a lot of the world was still carrying. Not really. The pace of development of military arms was such that by 1894 the state of the art included clip-fed (en bloc or stripper) magazine rifles, designed for a sustained rate of fire a '94 couldn't match. The '94 also could not meet the requirements imposed by the world's armies for performance under adverse conditions, and (as has been noted) had some structural weaknesses as well including a distinct lack of strength through the wrist. It also wasn't designed to tear down without tools. The state of the art was probably a Mauser, such as the Spanish or Swedish versions - these also used ammunition significantly better ballistically than the .30 WCF as each cartridge was loaded at the time. Winchester did try to sell the '94 as a military rifle, but other than a couple of fairly obscure contracts for second or third line service (generally at times when there simply weren't other options available) it was singularly unsuccessful. Made a good sporter though, and no doubt a fair choice for a guerrilla, especially if there was nothing better available.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 53,303 |
Two world wars, the subsequent "Cold War", and now this toilet flushing sound Merckel era look to be the death knell to any real chance of getting straight up and reasonably accurate notes on what the "Huns" provided, serviced, and as well used as deep cover for generally spooking around during this tragi-comic episode.
Mauser had complete trains chartered / rented,....going wherever the action was thickest / hottest. Mobile armories, with sales staff ready to council and advise.
Like em' or not, THEIR story would be one very interesting to hear.
There are no more than clues to be sorted out,...as to just how their adventures played out.
The victors get to write history,....or their version of it.
Asi' es.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,599 |
Last publication I read, Greg, mentioned anywhere from 5000 to 8000 German military advisors in Mexico during the revolution years. At any given time.
Also another little gem from another fine book mentioned a yet unpublished comment given by Col. Slocum (commander of US Forces at Columbus NM). He mentioned long after his retirement (1927 I believe) that the intent of the raid on Columbus was to kidnap his wife (Slocums) and hold her for ransom. He confided this to a junior officer one evening at a dinner party.
Slocums and villa were more than acquaintances. They knew each other pretty well. And Villa knew Slocum had married into eastern money. The idea of re supplying his army of the north by the Columbus raid was a bit obsurd to Slocums and there really was t that much in the whole town to resupply with!
Slocums never gave any other evidence for his story.
Interesting. May explain his absence during most of the incident as he did testify he was very concerned for his family's safety. But in reality the US Army can still be proud of exceptional small unit leadership displayed by the NCO's and jr. Officers. (All higher ranking officers were back at FortBliss for a polo tournament!)
Last edited by kaywoodie; 08/26/16.
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,599
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,599 |
I feel the bottom line concerning theModel 1894 is while it would probably not be anyone's first pick as a premiere military weapon, in 1910 it made one heck of an "insurgents" weapon.
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,110
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,110 |
kaywoodie; Top of the morning to you sir, I trust the week treated you folks acceptably well. Greg/crossfire and I have conversed on this topic before - we actually mighta met each other in the fall/winter of '80-'81 as we were in the same area and I gassed up at the station he ran. Anyway speaking personally in a lifetime of paying attention to firearms, the two most common center fire rifles that we'd run into with either Native hunter/trappers or farmer/trappers in rural Canada backwaters in the '60's was either a Lee-Enfield - usually a Mk III, much less often a No 4 and very rarely a Jungle Carbine - or a 94 Winchester - usually in .30-30, often enough in .32 Special that it wasn't uncommon and rarely in .38-55. As an aside the most common .22 was a Canadian made Cooey Model 75, with the Model 39 coming in a close second. I believe this is a slightly modified 39. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Bella-Twin-is-shown-with-the-hide-from-the-world-record-grizzly-bear.jpg) So anyway sir, whilst I'd not choose a 39 for a grizzly gun and neither would my first choice for repelling a zombie horde be a 94, if that's all I had, based upon shooting both arms a whole bunch - I'd probably still be someone that'd be reasonably dangerous to stand in front of....  Sorry for the slight diversion of the thread into more northern latitudes folks. The Mexican Revolution has always been of particular interest to me and I appreciate all the input here, it's been a grand read. All the best to you all this weekend and good luck on your upcoming hunts this fall. Dwayne
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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Posts: 31,599
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,599 |
Wow! That's pretty cool Brian!!!! My adopted Grand dad hunting in Mexico in the 20's. He carried a Model 54 Winchester in 30 Govt 1906. He always mentione de hunting in the "Burro" Mountains. Which I'm sure is just like the millions of "Sandy" creeks we have here! LOL! He mentioned one evening an old Indian walked into their camp leading a burro. And he had a 94 SRC that had definitely "seen the elephant". Prolly about 1925. But the old man was extremely proud of it! It was "his" pride and joy! On a sidenote he also said they had a black cook that they took with them. The Federales would not let them bring in a "black" man, so they told them he was an Indian. All was well! I'm sure there was a little Mordita involves too!
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806 |
As an aside the most common .22 was a Canadian made Cooey Model 75, with the Model 39 coming in a close second. I believe this is a slightly modified 39. So anyway sir, whilst I'd not choose a 39 for a grizzly gun and neither would my first choice for repelling a zombie horde be a 94, if that's all I had, based upon shooting both arms a whole bunch - I'd probably still be someone that'd be reasonably dangerous to stand in front of.... That lady definitely deserves a thread of her own! Do tell!
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Posts: 1,326
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,326 |
My wifes family is Lebanese. Her great grandfather and his brothers immigrated into the country there around the time of the revolution. The family story is that he was a gun smuggler for Villa. He would come up into texas and louisiana to "procure" guns for the revolution and get them back into mexico. When things started going south, the family members that were actually living in mexico, were told to "never come back" .
They moved into south louisiana and did well for themselves as "wholesalers".
There are a few pictures of him done up with sabers and guns sitting horseback on her grandfathers wall , I'll see if i can get a few to post next time i'm there. ![[Linked Image]](http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp75/jmd025/3ED22E88-59D4-424D-BAF8-C61E3121673F_zpswb33ozmf.jpg) A fairly early picture of mr Villa , my wife's great grandfather to his left . As told to me by his son , they were friends and business aquantiences , and remained so until pancho began to cause trouble with the states . My wife's great grandfather provided him with "supplies" until that time , then he left to become a US citizen . ![[Linked Image]](http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp75/jmd025/1CCA20BB-C6E5-4112-A237-90490777F497_zps2vmxxhdi.jpg) Another of the great grandfather . Family name was "Helu" , changed slightly upon becoming a citizen of the US
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ...
as I open it a crack they speak :
"Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
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Posts: 38,822
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Posts: 38,822 |
kaywoodie; Top of the morning to you sir, I trust the week treated you folks acceptably well. Greg/crossfire and I have conversed on this topic before - we actually mighta met each other in the fall/winter of '80-'81 as we were in the same area and I gassed up at the station he ran. Anyway speaking personally in a lifetime of paying attention to firearms, the two most common center fire rifles that we'd run into with either Native hunter/trappers or farmer/trappers in rural Canada backwaters in the '60's was either a Lee-Enfield - usually a Mk III, much less often a No 4 and very rarely a Jungle Carbine - or a 94 Winchester - usually in .30-30, often enough in .32 Special that it wasn't uncommon and rarely in .38-55. As an aside the most common .22 was a Canadian made Cooey Model 75, with the Model 39 coming in a close second. I believe this is a slightly modified 39. So anyway sir, whilst I'd not choose a 39 for a grizzly gun and neither would my first choice for repelling a zombie horde be a 94, if that's all I had, based upon shooting both arms a whole bunch - I'd probably still be someone that'd be reasonably dangerous to stand in front of.... Sorry for the slight diversion of the thread into more northern latitudes folks. The Mexican Revolution has always been of particular interest to me and I appreciate all the input here, it's been a grand read. All the best to you all this weekend and good luck on your upcoming hunts this fall. Dwayne Always good posts - this one is especially good. Thanks.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Posts: 23,319
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319 |
Sir Frederick Russel Burnham, D.S.O. had a few dry, and somewhat pertinent comments regarding Mix's "service" in the Boer War. Ever the gentleman, he kept it pretty light, and cut Mix LOTS of slack. Anybody that hasn't read his "Scouting on Two Continents", SHOULD . Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Russell_BurnhamThis guy was FOR REAL GTC Just ordered it on Amazon. For good measure, also ordered . . . A Splendid Savage: The Restless Life of Frederick Russell Burnham 1st Edition by Steve Kemper (Author)
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,110
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,110 |
OrangeOkie;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day's been a good one for you all so far.
Thanks for the head's up on the book by Steve Kemper - I wasn't aware of it until now.
I've also ordered one from Amazon for winter reading.
Thanks again and all the best to you folks this fall.
Dwayne
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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Posts: 150,942
Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 150,942 |
He probably carried whatever he wanted to.
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Posts: 53,303
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 53,303 |
Greg/crossfire and I have conversed on this topic before - we actually mighta met each other in the fall/winter of '80-'81 as we were in the same area and I gassed up at the station he ran. Dwayne,....IIRC we ( my Station / Trading Post, "Old Fort Chiniqui)were running propane into the Boy Scout Jamboree during somewhat hostile weather conditions ? I think the staff and I could have starred in a zombie flick, by the time that wound down. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,540
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 2,540 |
Back to the Win M-94 for a minute. dan oz mentioned "a couple of obscure military contracts" for the 94 during WW-1.
The June, 2015 issue of American Rifleman has an article, "Winchester Lever-Actions Go To War". Regarding the M-94 the article states that Great Britain acquired aprox. 5,000 M-94's in 30-30 for the Royal Navy. The article goes on to say that France contracted for 15,100 M-94 carbines.
The article states that some of these M-94's were carried by motorcycle couriers. Now there is an interesting mental picture, as the same rifle and scabbard transitioned from horseback to motorcycle.
Interestingly, the article states that the British Royal Navy also acquired 20,000 Model 1892 rifles in .44-40.
While arguably most of these Winchesters never saw "front-line" service, they certainly did see war-time service. I am sure the Winchester's light weight and easy handling characteristics were appreciated by those who carried them.
Nifty-250
"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
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Campfire Regular
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Actually, what I said was Winchester did try to sell the '94 as a military rifle, but other than a couple of fairly obscure contracts for second or third line service (generally at times when there simply weren't other options available) it was singularly unsuccessful. What you've posted bears that out. FWIW, early in WWI there was a huge shortfall in the number of SMLE service rifles needed for the rapidly expanding British Army. Among other responses, the Royal Navy was called upon to transfer stocks of SMLE service rifles to the Army, and in turn the RN had to find other rifles to fill the gap. These included something like 150,000 Arisakas, as well as a few odds and sods in comparatively small numbers like about 4000 Remington 14 1/2s and those Winchester 94s, and sundry others. The British Army also had a range of oddballs temporarily pressed into second and third line service too, once again to free up Lee Enfield service rifles for the front until production had caught up with demand. To put those numbers into context, by the time that WWI ended, more than 2 million SMLEs and about 1.2 million P14s had been made. Other countries had similar problems, such as France and, when it finally entered the war, the US too, leading to some similar decisions.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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dan,
I agree with you, for the most part. I wasn't disputing what you said. I was adding more information about the obscure contracts that backed up what you said.
I also love the visual of British sailors below decks in the evening cleaning and oiling their M-92 .44-40's.
Nifty-250
"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Thanks for sharing those pics. They are extremely interesting.
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