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Here's Ross...

http://www.98.net/ibha/shotguns.htm

Dan,

Thanks for the link. Seyfried wrote, " I normally use FFFg in all but the largest bores. The 10s and 8s, with long barrels and heavy shot charges at times will perform best with FFg. This fine granulation may seem inappropriate to some, but it is partly due to the slower nature of our modern powder, when compared to vintage propellant."

As I wrote previously, vintage shotgun or sporting grade black powder was not pressed as densely as rifle grade powder. That meant vintage shotgun powder would burn faster than rifle grade powder of the same grain size. Therefore anyone hoping to duplicate the performance of vintage sporting powder with modern rifle grade GOEX would need to use the next finer grain size, viz. substituting modern 3Fg rifle BP for vintage 2Fg sporting BP.

On a separate note, another shooter sent me some additional references to BP pressure research. In a paper by Noble and Abel published in 1875, the authors give the maximum theoretical pressure that could be generated with conventional BP as 6400 atmospheres or 92,500 psi. This is apparently a little higher than the 86,000 psi they'd measured in an enclosed container because of heat transfer to the container.

The article cited is Researches on Explosives - Fired Gunpowder, by Captain Noble and F. A. Abel, published in
Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London (1776-1886), ISSN: 0261-0523, Volume 165 - 1875, Pages: 49 - 155.

The link can be found through: http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/
Or you could try: http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/media...55r81376806.pdf

Also, I'd written earlier that I thought brown powder was made from coconut shells. Actually, it was made from rye grass, and it was called brown powder or cocoa powder, It had less sulfur than regular BP and was used for naval guns during the Spanish American war.

All the best,

Dick

My $.o2

if you can blow up a cartridge rifle with 4FG....

.........you should hang it on the wall, and not load nuttin' into it.

I would not look for accuracy, or velocity, it don't work that way.

If you just gotta' jazz 'yer starttle centers..........

go for it.

Irellevant, GTC

Has anyone collected MadMonk's (William Knight) observations together?
I've encountered his comments in odd places from time to time and found them useful. I've seen nothing of late except the Thunder Ridge 2003 notes, no mean contribution.
I need to go back and read that again.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

To whom it may concern. I once had a BP magazine that had a article about a man hunting wild sheep in Hawaii. He was using a cap and ball rifle and the only powder he had to use was 4 f. and had no problems. It seems that black powder's burn rate is somewhat controlled by pressure more than granular size. the higher the pressure the slower it burns . just the opposite of smokeless powder. if you don't beleive me put 100 grains of any BP size you like and leave the ball about 2 inches from the powder. WARNING ... use a long string because it will most likley gernade the rifle. so if you load a cartridge with any BP and press it in tight you most likley will not have any problem.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Didn't mean to come across as a wise guy, in my last post.

This thread is one of the most articulate, and educational , on this subject that I've ever read anywhere, and sincerist thanks to all who are contributing.

I guess what's got me Buffaloed ( pun intended )....is that , given the outrageous compression levels that some use from time to time ( me included), ...and that , whatever the granulation started with, the charge becomes a crushed, jammed very solid plug...
Why the aversion to 4fg? I'm not saying that those compression levels produce the best accuracy, they seldom do. I just don't see where all the pressure can come from, based on granulation alone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Guess I'm missing something here, and will continue to study the really good writings here.

Thanks again, GTC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

CFO, grain size plays to quickness(genuine ballistic word) for the most part but in regards what that does to peak pressure I dunno so far as BP goes. One of the issues at play here is what kind of gun you're using, dainty, BPCR or maybe a scattergun. In the realm of the first and last, tube walls can be rather thin. I doubt it makes a huge difference in rifles such as the Sharps but the others...I'm out of touch there. There is a documented increase of pressure from Fg to FFg to FFFG per Lyman data in several manuals they've published, that for a given charge. I would ASSUME it follows with FFFFG, but don't know for certain. Conventional wisdom....in whatever form suiting the position taken by one Dogma dealer or another...has it that you can only generate so much pressure with BP per volume and it's not true. It IS a low velocity explosive, and at some point in the burn I'd guess that one could generate a significant pressure spike with large volumes(unburned) going off due to pressure factors as the first part of the charge goes boom. Black is pressure sensitive, smokeless is not. Not sure I explained that properly, but it's the way I understand things. Of course, I may be totally out of my mind on this one...doing some speculating etc....

The high pressures control the burning rate of BP. smokless gets higher with pressure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hubert, would care to elucidate on that a bit more?

The more open or the less pressure there is on black powder the faster it will burn.

The more pressure there is on smokeless powder the faster it will burn.

So to keep pressures down with black powder it is packed as tight as you can get it.

to keep pressures down with smokeless powder you allow more space in the cartridge.

I don't know any way to make it more clear. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, OK...I guess. Not terribly concerned about smokeless in this discussion, ffffg being the point....and not trying to be a wise azz here but what is the source of your info on BP "burn" rates vis-a-vis loose and tightly packed. What does the state of compaction have to do with the pressure level info I posted above, where granulation DOES have an effect, all else being equal. I ask for clarification due to this: BP is a low velocity explosive, it's burn rate is relatively stable regardless of environment so far as I know. Loading a BP rifle or shotgun with airspace between bullet and powder is a good way to ring a barrel so far as I know. It's not burn rate that does this, it is the bullet acting as an obstruction...so far as I know.

If I'm wrong about this please make me wiser. What say you?

All of my BP books and data was burned during a recent house cleaning ,as well as all my american rifle mags . and about all my sporting magazines. so take it or leave it . it dosen't matter to me. 50 years of collecting info is gone. and my memory isen't good enough to recall all about it. sorry..

Sorry about your fire Hubert, that sort of thing makes a hollow in your life for sure. I'll take it and let this dog sleep. Take care.