Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters VIHTAVUORI N165 VS. ALLIANT RL 22

I hear alot of good things about VV powders and am getting ready to place an order for one of the above. I can get 5 pounds of RL 22 for the price of 4 pounds of VV N165. Is there anything about VV powders that make them superior to comparable Alliant powders or is it just the "exotic" aspect that creats their buzz. Thanks.

According to VV, their powders are what might be termed "temperature-resistant," much like the Hodgdon Extremes. I have tested this with the Hodgdon (and Ramshot rifle) powders, and they check out great, but have not tested the VV powders.

RL-22 is one of the more temperature-sensitive powders of its burning rate. Hsve seen it lose 150 fps when a load worked up at 70 was chronographed at zero. This makes no difference to a deer or elk, but 100-yard point of impact and/or accuracy can be affected, sometimes quite noticeably.

John Barsness

I did a small test on these powders and found RL 22 to be the best for temp stability depite what the adds say??????
And I uded to hate RL 22-25, Any how this is what I came up with
Keep in mind this is for my guns and calibers.YMMV!!!!
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1258203/page/0/fpart/1

Thanks both. The attribute I am more concerned about would be consistency and burn temp., if there is data out there on that. Mostly I am looking to extend barrel life in a fast twist 22-250. I have read of some guys doing so by using VV N165 ,because it is supposedly a cool burning powder, and scrubbing their throats with JB often to keep them smooth. I am wondering if RL22 is similar in that respect. Beyond that VV powder's seem to be highly thought of. I often wonder if it uis because they are expensive and somewhat exotic or if they are better in other regards such as consistency, etc.

John,
I'm really interested in the methods you used to test powders for temp sensitivity.

When I did a test of RL-22, one 270W lost 100fps, another 270W actually gained a few fps, but on both rifles the ES increased to 100fps or more with 10 shot strings?

I was wondering if you have seen this, or was just an amomaly of my own test methods.

Casey

I used VV 165 in a couple of 1000 yd BR matches. I found I had to keep my ammo in a cooler during the day and only take it out right before a string or I would get a different elevation between relays! Never chronographed the loads in different temps but it doesn't take much to affect the trajectory at 1000 yds. I had better luck with H4841 and VV 160.

VV165 sounds a little slow for a 22-250. Seems that you would want to mitigate the amount of powder burning rather than turn it up if barrel life is you goal.

You may be right concerning the N160 vs. N165 though I will be shooting a AI version with 75's. I've only seen VV make claims of less temp. sensativity in regards to their high energy N-5?? series.

When I have tested powders for temperature variation, I have avoided the "standard" method of testing, which is to cool or heat only the ammo. This never seemed logical to me, as it doesn't take long for individual rounds to cool or warm due to ambient temperature, and the primer is especially easily warmed or cooled.

My normal procedure is to chronograph several loads during 70-degree weather (or as close to it as I can get), with the ammo protected from any possible sunlight, which DOES have an effect, even if the ammo is just sitting in a box in the sun.

Then I wait until the weather guy predicts an overnight temp around zero, and place all the rifles and ammo to be tested in my garage overnight. This more nearly reproduces the results of actual hunting, which as far as I know is never done with only the ammo cooled. It also has seemed logical to me that a cold rifle (especially the barrel) would have some effect on the tests.

When I go to the range, I place one of those little shake-em-up hand warmers on the battery of the chronograph. This seems to keep it working just fine. The tests are carried out with the same rifles, same batch of ammo, and same chronograph used in the 70-degree tests.

My "warm" tests are carried out on hot summer days in the 90's, but with the ammo protected from direct sunlight until the shooting is done.

So far, all the Hodgdon Extreme powders and all the Ramshot rifle powders except Magnum have all chronographed within 10 fps at zero of what their muzzle velocity chronographs at 70. (Magnum loses a little, but not much, say 40-50 fps). Other powders, such as the Alliant line (except Reloder 15, which was redesigned some years ago when accepted by our military to be less temp-sensitive) and the IMR series, have shown a drop of at least 80 fps and sometimes up to 150 fps from 70 to zero. Exactly how much does depend on cartridge and load.

I have never seen a point of impact change, and rarely a major accuracy change, with any of the powders that maintain their velocity between 70 and 0. I have seen both with other powders, but not always.

ALL powders gain some velocity at over 70 degrees, but the temp-insensitive ones gain far less. The worst offenders here are the traditional Ball powders, which really take off in warm weather.

Even with powders that are relatively temperature sensistive, the least amount of change will occur between about 35 and 85 degrees.

It is a kind of a pain to actually go out and shoot at around zero Fahrenheit, the reason I have not gotten around to testing the VV powders.

JB

I might use VIHTAVUORI powders if I could get them. Here in CT there is no reliable supply. I have talked to the shop owners here and they say that the distributors come and go and that they are not going to try to stock in any longer.

In order to try it I would want to buy just one bottle local. When I get set on a load then I do buy the powder in larger lots to keep it the same from usually Powder Valley.

I am not pleased to read that RL 22 has wide temperature variations. While I have not found significant POI impact variations in my range testing they may be happening. Many times the variation in impact is due to the rifle.

So far in my testing, which includes about 3000 shots a year, I have had extreme difficulty getting any load with Extreme Powders that can perform like RL or IMR powders. My best guess as to why this is I blame on statistical aberation and just bad luck on my part. On the other hand I don't swallow advertizing claims without some salt.

Here is a link to Powder Valley. Note that about a third of the Vit. powders are out of stock! Then check the RL, IMR, or Hodgdon powders nothing significant is out of stock!

Here's what I know from shooting them. VV-N165 and R-22 are very close in burn rate. I essentially exchange one for another in my .280 and velocities are very close. What is not close is that VV-N165 shows much more consistent velocity than R-22, or any other powder that I have used. The temp extremes here in AL are not enough to fret when it comes to temp sensitivity. I don't load or shoot in our extremely hot weather, and it rarely gets close to zero here. I have noticed a loss of velocity even with H4831 when the temps dropped 40 degrees from say 70 to 30. But the loss was 25-50fps, which didn't change my POI, and certainly would only be noticable at ranges farther than I can shoot. Get you some VV-N160 and N-165 and you'll have the equivalent of R-19 and R-22 in burn rates (N160 is ever so slightly faster than R-19, about a grain IME) and they will give you excellent consistency.

Tell me about it!

I never thought of using one of the chemical handwarmers--I just stick the chrono timer in the cab of my truck every few shots.

That's pretty much I did when I ran my test.

Casey

John, what you are saying about testing in cold weather makes absolute sense- one reason I will never be able to test rounds down to zero!
The problem I had was if I were to shoot in the first relay say during May, my ammo would be fine as I would work up loads in reasonable temps, but it if I got the last relay and/or the shoot-off, temps would already be in the 100's. The fact that the gun would warm up compounded the problem as 10 round strings can heat stuff up.

I would shoot my sighters, taking them out of the playmate one at a time and then wait for my conditions. I would then place my 10 record rounds in one spot in the playmate cooler and take them out each time the conditions were ready. I would try and shoot within 5 seconds of placing the round in the rifle. I felt that this would mitigate the vertical rise that I would seem to get if I let the ammo cook. It might only ammount to a couple of inches but that is enough to lose a match. With 1000 yd shooting, ES is everything.
Losing 60 fps with a 142 grain Sierra MK results in an additional 4" drop @1000 yds or an increase a corresponding 4" higher POI. You would never see it at 100 or 200.

Did this work? I think it helped but didn't completely fix the problem.
I never tested any powders to see if they lost velocity in cold weather- what's cold weather? But I did test a few in my 300 to see how much a hot day would speed them up. The worst I ever tested- H870. The best was VarGet. No news there! Never tested the VV series like this for heat gain as I didn't hunt with them.

I may be mistaken but I heard somewhere that Hodgdon was taking over the distribution of VV powders here in the states and it should be much more wide spread and steady in availablity then in the past.
Has anyone else heard this?

I did the same basic test as JB just not on purpose. When I first got my chrono, my gun and ammo was left in the truck overnight in a unheated garage. It was about zero if I remember right. I wanted to try the chrono so bad. I drove about 5 min. away set it up and shot. My load (180/300 win.) was supose to shoot 3080. it was high 2900's with 60-80 fps ES. Same load same gun same chrono on a 90 degree day. Not sure if the ammo set in the sun or not . If it did it didn't for long. Anyhow it shot 3100 with a high of 3124 and still around a 60-80 ES. RL22 has always given me top FPS and accuracy . I wasn't as bothered by the loss of FPS as I was a 2-3" shift in POI @ 100 yards. I still load with it in MI where temps tend to be fairly stable, but I don't use it in Canada. I use Hodgdon now mostly Retumbo (RUM's ) and H1000. So far I haven't noticed any shift in POI. Good hunting KH

Dennis--

Yeah, they ALL gain some velocity at over 70 degrees, even the ones that don't show any velocity loss in cold weather. The best ones just gain less velocity (and pressure) in warmer weather.

John

I have always liked RL-22 for my .300 Win. until I discovered "all the above".Have since gone to H-1000 or H-4831sc.The Hodgdon Extremes have really performed for me under temperature conditions of 25 degrees to 90 degress.My question is that "IF" VV-165 is very near the same burn rate as RL-22 AND is temperature insensitive,then I would like to try a pound.Could anyone with experience loading VV-165,.300 Win.mag.,and 180 gr. bullets offer any velocity and accuracy figures?Any favorite loads?
Thanks very much,
Jim

The bad news is it comes in two pound containers.

This is such an interesting question. Here's my two shillings. I reload for a 6.5x55m SE for three different rifles. Here is just one, single thing that I did. I thought that the Swedes might know something about a cartridge that they helped invent and that they later built a company up from a shed around. It was "Just a Guideline." That company is Norma. So, I looked at what powers Norma recommends for there "child." They of course listed two, the Norma 204 and the Norma MRP. I then checked both of the burn rates for those and matched up the Norma 204 with H4350, checked several reloading manuals on that one, then the Norma MRP with RL-22, and then matched that with the next one on the burn rate chart, which on my chart was Win785. That put the burn rate on one side being Norma 204 and H4350 and on the other side Norma MRP, RL-22, and Win 785 just as a sort of wild card. Shot all sorts of groups and sizes. I had a favorite and my CZ-550 American did too. Then, I took the two "recommended" powders from Norma, the company that generations of Swedes have been going to for loading the 6.5x55mm SE, and matched the mean burn rates between Norma 204 and Norma MRP to find out which VV-??? had a burn rate that was smack-dap in the middle between the 204 and the MPR, and that, the VV company said "Was the best" for the 6.5SE. And there is was, "almost," right in the middle, the VV-N560. Wasn't that an interesting burn rate for a Finnish company whose shooters will go up against both Norwegians and Swedes in competition matches. On my chart the burn rate for Norma 204 lists it as number 218 and the MRP is 233 on a scale that I have of 1 to 266. So, what was around 224 or 225? I thought. If I were a Finn, and taking my 6.5x55m and wanted to beat a Swede at his own game, which power would I "design." Guess what? Number 224 just happens to be VV-560. Then I bought a small microscope. I don't recommend this next step. I put out bakers paper and spread a very, very small patch of Norma 204, then Norma MRP, the RL-22, (very small, a spec), then IMR 4831, and made very, very small burn marks on the baker's paper. I lined all those up with the next one, the VV-N560, and then went "poof," and put the burn patch on the white paper under a microscope at 200X. I use VV-560 in my Tikka T3, my CZ Bavarian, and my CZ 550 American. That's my story, and I am sticking to it.

You drug up an 8-year-old thread to tell us you burned some powder on parchment paper? What did you see under your microscope?

I have burned a lot of N560, it is a very good powder but when Vihtavuori powders jumped about 50% in price I abandoned them completely.

Anything that I used 560 for I can use Magnum or Magpro with equal results.