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Are there any who have wisdom who do not believe that the Roman Catholic church is indeed Mystery Babylon, the whore depicted in Revelation 17?

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/sevenhills.asp

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti6.htm

The links above are quite interesting. I imagine this is another can of worms, but the similarities are obvious, AMAZING, and seemingly irrefutable.

I researched both sides of this assertion, and those who would oppose this notion seem to have precious little to base their arguments on. It is almost as though they have a "powerful delusion" of sorts.

I am not--I should point out--saying that members of the Catholic Church are apostate believers, to the contrary, Christ calls them out in Revelation 18:4-5

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

So Christ acknowledges that He has people in the Roman Catholic Church, so all would not be doomed to destruction if they heeded His call.

All food for thought, of course. But folks--if you'll read and understand the links posted--I think you'll come to the same conclusion that I have.

Dan

I only qualify on the the first part of the quote, not the second, so I will not comment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is a can of worms, tho. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Karen and I worshipped at Vigil Mass this evening. The Lector, as usual, read an Old Testament reading and one from the new Testament. Both were absolutely wonderful. The OT reading was Numbers 11:25-29 and the NT reading was James 5:1-6. Then, Father Todd gave a wonderful homily about the meaning of the two Scripture readings and their impact on our lives today.

Basically, the message is that even though others might be slightly different than you, do not be too fast to judge...do not be too fast to hate...do not be too fast to think them wrong.

I believe I will leave it at that and return to Lurkdom.

God Bless,

Steve

There indeed has been a change in the Catholic church's manner of giving classes in the past few decades from how it operated in years long past. In the 60's and 70's the Catholic church, especially in America and Europe, was losing so many people, particularly young people, that many in it felt they had to do something to stay relevant in people�s lives. Masses that were given only in Latin were given in the local language, contemporary worship services were offered which included somewhat protestant style gospel services, and lay preachers were actually allowed. Such things were unheard of before.

While I look at wizard�s post and wonder if he thought through how the language of his post would affect some, I must also say that the leopard will not change its spots. Still the message he gives must be somewhat abrasive to those who are of that church�s flock. I appreciate Dogzapper�s measured response. It was wise indeed.

Perhaps it is possible for us to look through the issue and see some of the reasons ideas such as this are believed, from both sides. Specifically I mean:

1. Why do some in the Catholic church believe it was the Mother church of all Christendom?
2. Why do some believe it is not, but rather the whore that will be destroyed as mentioned in Revelation?

If we could look at the evidence available in both of these areas, and perhaps others if they are thought of, and in a respectful and systematic way, it would be helpful for many here. I personally doubt that could be accomplished as we each become such warriors for our cause that we want to attack the person who attacks our way of life or the beliefs we are presenting rather than respond to the ideas being espoused. The beliefs presented have been hundreds of years in the making. I doubt we will resolve them here. If it could it would be an interesting study. If not it would simply cause division.

Swampman, thanks for that link.

Dogzapper makes an excellent point supporting the notion that there is indeed truth to be found in Catholic teachings, and that there are indeed (at least two! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) <just ribbin'> members of the body of Christ in attendance of such teachings.

Those true members of the Body are acknowledged in Revelation 18, as mentioned earlier. The fact that Christ calls them out of the prostitute says to me that He has still saved those souls.

I think to attempt to reason away that Revelation 17 and 18 could be referring to any other contemporary institution requires much more imagination than wisdom. Read the Word.

If we believe that we are indeed in the end times, then the "whore" must be in existence now. Some try to say that the whore was ancient Rome under Nero, but that does not fit all descriptions of the prostitute. John, as commanded by Christ to write down, says in 17:9 "This calls for a mind of wisdom." I don't think true wisdom leads any man to relegate God's Word to nothing more than a Western Civ history lesson. There are plenty enough books to tell us about ancient Rome already.

No, Revalation is end times prophecy, given by Christ Himself. Let's not fail to understand what He is saying to us; let's not fail to have that mind of wisdom.

Dan

When you see religion so much in the news as you do these days it is not far-fetched to see a day when the world's religions as they are now cease to exist for the most part. The anti-Christ will perform many blasphemous "miracles" drawing the attention of the world to himself and his new world religion. He may rule from Rome so this would be the obvious choice for its headquarters.Many people in the world have the view of peaces at any price these days and view the differences in religion as the main cause of the worlds wars. Just a thought.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

I believe I have been to Lurkdom. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Not enough fellowship, for my liking. But as someone else has said, I appreciate your measured response. Tried to measure mine as well, as you may have guessed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was raised Roman Catholic and have belonged to a bible based churches while in the military and since my retirement from the service we have joined The Church of God and when I� am posed with such questions or in a conversation with others I like to see what the Word of God says and I� am drawn to these next verse

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

These verses can be taken in a number of ways and have many meanings to each one of us but I try not to drag any one church down not as long as there are devil worshipers, heathen religions, Muslims and non- believers these I will spend my time trying to get these types in any church that preaches God' Word

Thanks for you time and I hope that I didn�t take away from anyone�s input .......Bob

Amen, Bob!

Guys, this has nothing whatsoever to do with judging individuals.

The case has been made in an extremely compelling way. If there is some other viable explanation as to what entity, institution, or government Mystery Babylon represents, I and others would gladly consider it.

If you'd like to make the case that these are not the end times, and that a more fitting picuture of Mystery Babylon will likely emerge in the decades (or centuries) to come, that is fair.

I believe, however, that the end times are very near. Considering that, Mystery Babylon fits the Roman Catholic Church better than anything else in the last millenium and a half or so.

God does not want us to put our heads in the sand with regard to His Word. We will often be wrong about our suppositions and conjecture. The best way to help someone understand that he is wrong is to provide a more reasonable explanation, or to point to other scripture that negates what the individual is currently believing.

Those same verses from Matthew could be used to rebuke anyone who rightly discerns evil. This isn't to say that I've rightly discerned evil here--but it is to say that if that's all ya got, it ain't enough. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Dan,

I agree that it has nothing to do with judging the motive of a person's heart. And I believe I know what the intent of your heart is, and I am not putting you down for that. I think you are likely honestly seeking the truth, and I would be the last one to kick a guy for seeking the truth. My last 24 years as a Christian has been an endless search for truth.

I believe that you are likely being misunderstood by some of the posters as trashing individual Catholics. I think I can see past that to your looking at the institution, and not the individual. When we look at individual denominations, the temperature rises, because MOST folks can't see the differences between the precepts of an institution and the profession of the individual.

I have, in the past, spoken loudly about the ills of the institution. I try to leave it at that, prefering not to comment on the ideology of the individual. Salvation is a personal thing between the individual and the Lord. Understood that if a person is to be saved, it will be by grace through faith in the finished, one time, blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary. No dispute there. Are there individual Catholics who are biblically saved? No doubt! Are there individual "protestants" that are as lost as a goose in high weeds? No doubt! Scores of 'em.

Like I said before, your question is very specific in its scope, asking if there were some who DID NOT BELIEVE that the RC institution was the mystery Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.

Because of the way you asked your question, I cannot answer it specifically. I am not one of the folks who don't believe that.

I think that there must be a few here that can answer the question with more than judge not lest ye be judged. You asked an honest, open ended question that probably should be answered by the folks that DON'T believe that.

Problem is, that it is causing strife, and some times there is no decent way to avoid it, without compromising the truth. Tough spot to find oneself in.

Dan,
Consider this. The Jews of Jesus' day were very well read and aware of the law and prophesy and still they missed Him. Yeah, there are lots of reasons for that, one being God blinded them but He didn't blind them all as I believe many Jews accepted Christ just as many Gentiles did. So I believe God allowed their pride to blind them. I'm not calling you prideful nor blind, before that is considered. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Even with the Holy Spirit we only see as through a glass darkly and in part.

I absolutely agree we are in the last days. I'm also aware that every generation has thought the same.

I also believe that when the end comes and all prophesy is fullfilled it will happen unlike anyone has even considered in our natural minds. It's just how God seems to like to work, from my observations.

So, noting the above, I cannot even consider that it would be appropriate for me to alledge my Catholic Brothers and Sisters in Christ have attached themselves to what will be shown as the Shore of Babylon..........I didn't even know it was by the sea........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (I misspelled and decided it looked better that way in the context discussed). I'm neither a Catholic nor an apologist for that denomination. There are lots of things I see or think I do, that raise enough questions for me that I would not consider making it my church home. Still, I believe strongly that the power of the Word and the perfection of His sacrifice can make Brothers of us all, and I believe that I will enjoy the company of a great many Catholics in Heaven.....................................................................and even a few Baptists. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if we are going to have to hire interpreters in heaven to translate everything into a common tongue? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Like maybe 17th century English. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

(Just so us old fashioned babtists can understand what's a'goin' on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I believe millions go to church thinking they are worshipng God. Sadly, they are worshiping a being that is easily mistaken for God, who once was the highest of angels. Without a revelation a human will always mistake one for the other.

KJV: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wizard,

We have to be careful how we define another man's truth's. God has shared his revelation's with all men differently and we are not to judge. We need not divide over religion. There is no truth in religion. Maybe this truth you believe in is for you and as result it's caused your mine to stirr. Thus your being moved into another area of maturity. Your truths are for you to establish your faith. Remember, what is true today becomes the lie tomorrow thru maturity. God has given you these challenges to stirr your mind into the answer you need for you. A table is prepared for us all and sometimes we can't feed upon anothers table but to view everyone elses ideas of the truth as wrong would simply be missing the whole purpose of your mind being stirred to seek your own truth.

God Bless in your search for understanding and peace.

'Course not! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now Bro, I'm sure you know that tongues will cease. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And it says so right here: He even tells us when. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

.........from my experiences some of 'em pretty well do........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Huh?

Would someone interpret that for me, please? I feel like I'm at a Sun Moon meeting.

While I understand some of what you mean, I have to tell you that you walk a dangerous line. Truth is truth. It is truth for you and truth for me. It is true today and will be true tomorrow. And, it was true before the foundation of the world.

While God does reveal different things to us at different speeds I will always combat the idea that He will tell one person something is true and another that it isn't. What is happening is our interjections of belief (religion if you will), not truth. What you are saying here is simply post modernism, and it is wrong.

If we accept this then we also have to accept that someone could tell us that God has revealed to them that Jesus was actually married to Mary and had children. Hey, who are we to judge? If we think like this then we have to admit that maybe some do have to be baptized to go to heaven, as that is what God has told them in order to deliver truth to them. Who are we to say what God has revealed to them?

No. Truth is truth, and we will all become transformed into the image of our God. True, some faster than others, but that will never affect what is true.

I disagree. There is only 1 truth. Black is black and white is white no matter what else you call it. God gave us 1 truth and 1 only. The problem is that man has a hard time understanding it. God sent Jesus to die for us. That's truth whether you believe it or not. Bhuddists do not have the truth, JW's do not have the truth, and Muslims do not have the truth.

Dick