Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles why not the 9.3 x 64 Brenneke?

Reloading this chambering seems quite easy. Is it a dead round? If it is so good of a round why don't we utilize it or shoot more of it here in the U.S.? Seems like the bullet selection is good enough.

I like the idea of it not having a belt and fitting in a standard Mauser. Although currently I don't have this chambering but just might if I some how can grasp the reality of brass availability. Is it so darn difficult to buy here?

What are the pluses? Is it not a good down ranger and what is your use with this round. Actually when it comes to it why is the .375 RUGER being built when this is a capable round? I have considered this new chambering but figured this 1909 Arg. Mauser I recently acquired should be authentic in its design.

Who shoots this round and why do you like it? What is the best bullet for this shooting large game. Is there another round that can compare to it-nonbelted I mean? Wondering why I don't just don't go ahead and have one built and rebel against the new .375Ruger(as if it will do any good!).

Oh well just figured I'd ask and see if it is just me or anybody else shares the hopes and expectations of a round that has mystified the hunters worldwide.

thanks,

Chandalar Jack,

I'm not going to take the time to answer each and every one of your questions specifically but just in general, the 9.3 x 64 is a terrific cartridge for hunting. It was designed by intent to feed and function through a standard length Mauser action yet provide adequate downrange energy for harvesting European and African big game.

Reloading is simple and direct with no differences from any other non-belted cases. Cases are available through Huntingtons as manufactured by RWS and Dieter Horneber. I think Natchez is still carrying the RWS cases also. I don't have a problem getting a supply of cases except for the inevitable delays that occur sometimes when dealing with an overseas manufacturer. I have sidestepped this issue when pushed, by contacting Dieter Horneber directly.

I shoot this 9.3 as well as the x62 and x57 just because they're different and less common here in the States. There are similar and suitable cartridges more readily available and decidedly less expensive but as I say, I enjoy the unique.

I had been working on a shortened RUM case and a slightly modified x68 case before Ruger "accidently" announced the .375 Ruger project with Hornady and I have since abandoned them in favor of waiting for the Ruger product. While I don't normally support Ruger at all, this case will be the exception because there are some projects that I want to work with, without spending huge amounts of money and time stupidly.

The last few years has seen a resurgence in these 9.3 cartridges so bullets, loading information and reamers are all readily found with a little searching. The barrel makers have also joined in full force to supply us with a variety of barrel designs. So all-in-all, we're doing quite well and I hope that the trend of the 9.3's continues for a long time to come.

This is a compilation of excerpts and articles that I add to on the occasions when more information is available.

Caliber 9,3 x 64 Brenneke

9,3x64 is the strongest cartridge among the European 9.3 mm group of cartridges with excellent ballistic. In comparison to the cartridge .375 H&H Magnum, the 9.3x64 is more perfect by the range of indexes. It was worked out approximately in 1910 (in accordance with the other sources in 1927) by Wilhelm Brenneke for the Mauser rifle system with a bolt lock. It is the strongest one among cartridges worked out by this designer (7x64, 8x64, 9,3x64).

Before the war this cartridge was popular enough in a narrow but influential enough circle of German hunters on big fowl and it was especially popular among hunters who were fond of safari. However the cartridge reached the top popularity much later, after beginning the of production of 9,3x64 Brenneke by the company DWM and after the company was bought by the RWS/Dynamyt Nobel Concern. At that time this cartridge seriously wedged in the fight of age-old competitors: 9,3x62 and .375 H&H. Later globalization of hunting arms and cartridges market, then lowering of the interest to hunting abroad, lowered volume of production of 9,3x64. New cartridges/competitors appeared (eg. .338 Win. Mag.) which were widely advertised and cheaper even in Germany. As a result factory loading of cartridges cal. 9,3x64 decreased greatly.

Initially the cartridge was loaded with the bullet of Brenneke Torpedo Ideal (TIG) and Torpedo Univesal (TUG). Until recently it was equipped with the other bullet type - Kegelspitz, Teilmantel-R, though it is historically known in approximately 10 variants of loading. At present there left only one cartridge with bullet of TUG type (Torpedo universal) with weight 19.0 g in catalogue of the company. The range of bullets cal. 9.3 is wide enough (Nosler Partition with the weight 18.5 g, Barnes X-bullet with the weight 18.5 and 16.2, MEN Starkmantel with the weight 17 g, Woodleigh Weldcore with the weight 20.7 g, and others)

Foreign companies continue producing carbines with the bolt bar in lots for this cartridge: Blaser (mod. R93 Royal); Sommer+Ockenfuss (S+O Geradegzug-Griffrepetierer - short carbine of "bull-pun" type).

http://www.ab.ru/~stanok/eng/cart/sport/hist930x64.htm

Excerpt from a Guns & Ammo article:

The cartridge Chub was using was the 9.3x64mm Brenneke, one of the few cartridges in existence that offers serious competition to the .375 H&H as a world-standard all-around hunting cartridge. Its problem is that few people in America know anything about it. We also don�t know anything about the caliber, or the several other excellent 9.3mms, but Europeans have relied on them for nearly a century.

It�s actually inappropriate to say that the 9.3mm, caliber .366, was continental Europe�s answer to the British .375 caliber because just the reverse is actually true. At the turn of the century, Europe�s leading gunmakers started necking early Mauser and Mannlicher-Schoenauer military cartridges to accept heavier bullets of larger calibers. There were a number of cartridges in 9mm (.357), 9.3mm (.366) and 9.5mm (.375), and they fit nicely into the new and wonderfully inexpensive European bolt actions.

Their popularity scared the British gun trade, and in 1905 Holland & Holland introduced the .400/. 375, the first belted cartridge. Underpowered and underwhelming, it had little impact on the growing popularity of 9.3mms, so in 1912 H&H tried again with the .375 H&H as we know it today.

Things might have been different had World War I not occurred, or had it ended differently. Today the English-speaking world considers the .375 H&H the world�s most versatile cartridge, but Europeans aren�t so sure. Most of the sporting cartridges between 9mm and 9.5mm have faded into history, but there are three 9mms that retain a significant following. They are the 9.3x74R, the 9.3x62 Mauser and the 9.3x64 Brenneke. These three are different in design and power levels, but each is interesting and useful. With more and more American bulletmakers now offering .366-inch bullets, this European �Big Three� deserves a closer look.

The 9.3x64 Brenneke The big boy of 9.3s was designed by German firearms genius Wilhelm Brenneke in about 1910. The 9.3x64 is still as modern as tomorrow. It�s a true unbelted magnum; its rimless case has a base diameter of .504 (.034 of an inch thicker than the 7x57 family) with a rim slightly rebated to .492 of an inch. There is very little body taper, and the shoulder is fairly sharp, especially considering when it was designed. Case length is 2.52 inches, about the same as several of our .30-06-length belted mags. Technically, it will thus fit into a standard-length action, but overall length with the heavy bullets pushes (and in some actions exceeds) the limit.

The 9.3x64 Brenneke is not �better� than the .375 H&H, although its fans can certainly argue the point. It has slightly less bullet diameter, but its heavy projectiles have better sectional density. It will at least approach and (depending on who is doing the loading) can exceed .375 H&H velocities with bullets of similar weight. Since velocity is about the same as the .375, energy figures are also similar. The 9.3 does not offer the breadth of bullet selection of the .375 bore, but excellent 9.3 hunting projectiles are available. So it is no stretch to describe the 9.3x64 Brenneke as �the equal of the .375 H&H.� And this is hardly damning with faint praise. The 9.3x64 will shoot at least as flat, hit at least as hard and can be used on exactly the same range of game (which means almost everything in the world). It has the advantage of the unbelted case design of so many of our hot new magnums. That isn�t really a dramatic advantage, but it is more efficient, potentially more accurate and results in more compact ammunition.

Does that mean I�m ready to give up my beloved .375s and go to a 9.3x64? No, it doesn�t, and although Chub Eastman is justifiably enamored of his 9.3x64, I doubt he�s unloading all his .375s either. But so many writers (including me) have said for so long that the .375s (.375 H&H and faster) are the only sensible candidates for worldwide all-around rifles that it is taken as an article of faith. And if you consider ammo availability as criteria, it remains true. But in strictest terms, it is not true and never was. The other cartridge equally deserving of the title is the 9.3x64 Brenneke. The 9.3x74R and the 9.3x62 Mauser are very useful cartridges, but the 9.3x64 is truly an alternative to the great .375 Holland & Holland.

9.3mm Loads And Bullets

CARTRIDGE BULLET LOAD MUZZLE MUZZLE VELOCITY (fps) VELOCITY (ft-lbs)

9.3x74R 232 SP Norma Factory 2,630 3,535
9.3x74R 258 SP RWS Factory 2,460 3,465
9.3x74R 285 SP RWS Factory 2,280 3,290
9.3x74R 286 SP Norma Factory 2,360 3530
9.3x74R 250 NBT 60-gr. H380 2,400 3,198
9.3x74R 286 NP 55-gr. IMR 4064 2,300 3,360
9.3x62 Mauser 232 SP Norma Factory 2,624 3,548
9.3x62 Mauser 256 SP RWS Factory 2,560 3,726
9.3x62 Mauser 286 SP Norma Factory 2,360 3,530
9.3x62 Mauser 293 SP RWS Factory 2,430 3,842
9.3x62 Mauser 250 NBT 63-gr. IMR 4350 2,606 3,754
9.3x62 Mauser 286 NP 59-gr. RL15 2,500 3,970
9.3x64 Brenneke 247 SP RWS Factory 2,760 4,178
9.3x64 Brenneke 285 SP RWS Factory 2,690 4,580
9.3x64 Brenneke 293 SP RWS Factory 2,570 4,298
9.3x64 Brenneke 250 NBT 67-gr. RL15 2,800 4,351
9.3x64 Brenneke 286 NP 76-gr. IMR 4350 2,690 4,585

SP=Factory-supplied expanding bullet; NBT=Nosler Ballistic Tip; NP=Nosler Partition. Handloads shown approach maximum and may not be suitable in older rifles; drop 5 percent and work up in half-grain increments, checking for pressure signs. Actual velocities will vary with individual rifles.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/EUR/

9.3x64 Brenneke

If there was ever an overlooked cartridge that was adequate for any big game anywhere in the world, including the dangerous game of Africa, it could well be the 9.3x64 Brenneke. It was the brainchild of Wilhelm Brenneke in the period around 1910 and was the largest and most powerful of the Brenneke cartridges. The cartridge had an enthusiastic acceptance from big game hunters in Europe, and it didn�t take long for it to find its way to Africa.

The infamous ivory hunter John Taylor rated the 9.3x64 Brenneke as an excellent medium-bore cartridge right along side the .375 H&H Magnum. Not only was Taylor a professional ivory hunter, but he was also a student of ballistics and cartridge performance. Taylor�s theories of knockout power expounded upon in his books are still considered by some as a valid comparison of different cartridges.

Two things contributed to why the 9.3x64 Brenneke never gained the interest of American hunters. First was the lack of adequate bullets that could perform under the higher velocities, and second was the advent of World War II, which stopped all production of German sporting firearms for quite a few years. In the meantime the .375 H&H proved its worth and is still doing so today.

When European arms manufacturers started production of sporting firearms, sometime after World War II, the 9.3x64 Brenneke surfaced again, slowly gaining popularity as ammunition and components became available. Within the last few years, premium 9.3 bullets such as the Barnes X-Bullet, Swift A-Frame, Nosler Partition and others have made the 9.3x64 Brenneke a cartridge to take note of.

Ballistically it is the near twin to the .375 H&H. Factory loadings for the .375 H&H 300-grain bullet list a velocity of 2,530 fps. The 9.3x64 Brenneke factory load for the 286-grain bullet is 2,690 fps. With a bore size difference of only .009 inch (.375 versus .366) and a bullet weight difference of only 14 grains, you can see how close in performance they are. When you do the math, it even gives the edge to the 9.3x64 Brenneke.

When handloaded the 9.3x64 Brenneke is very impressive. Easy to load with its non-belted case, the Brenneke, like the 9.3x62, shoots most any load well. Bullets in the 250- to 270-grain range work superbly on any big game in North America. Both the heavier 286-grain bullets in either softpoint or solid work well on the big boys.

With the 9.3x64 Brenneke there is one big plus and one small inconvenience. The plus is that any standard-length action can be used. If a .30-06 or action of that length and bolt face configuration is used, the only alteration needed is to open the bolt face to accept the .496-inch rim of the 9.3x64 Brenneke brass, screw in the barrel and head for the range.
The inconvenience is obtaining brass. The only manufacturer of loaded ammunition and brass is RWS. It is imported in sufficient quantities, but you won�t find it at Wal-Mart. Most any specialty gun/reloading store will be able to get it for you. A one-shot purchase of 100 rounds of brass should last a near lifetime, as case life is very good.

After using the three 9.3 cartridges over the past few years, I can�t help but be impressed. When ranges are kept within a reasonable distance, the performance, with proper bullets, gets the job done as well as any cartridge on the market. Friends and hunting companions who have witnessed or used any of the 9.3s on big game have come away with praise, and some have gone on to build their own 9.3s.

It is interesting to note that with all the new ultras, shorts, belted magnums, etc. that have surfaced over the past 30 to 40 years, none do any better job as all-purpose cartridges than the ones designed by Otto and Wilhelm 100 years ago.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1379&magid=95

The call for a faster and more powerful 9, 3 was picked up by Germany's most advanced ammunition designer, Wilhelm Brenneke. In the late 1920s, he introduced his 9,3 x 64, which was by all means on par with the .375 H&H, in the late 1920s. Brenneke's 9,3 mm was designed to fit the standard length Mauser action perfectly, thus eliminating the need of an expensive and heavy magnum receiver. The advertised ballistics found in early Brenneke catalogues are pretty optimistic with some degree of "blue sky�. Nevertheless, Brenneke's round was definitely equal to the .375 H&H, and still much better suited for a standard length action. The ammunition was loaded to Brenneke's specifications by D.W.M. (Deutsche Waffen- and Munitionsfabriken). Surprisingly though, the Mauser factory, as well as the bigger gun factories of Suhl did not adopt this proprietary design, and the 9,3 Brenneke never went into the circulation it certainly deserved.
http://www.african-hunter.com/HatariTimes/the_9,3x70_magnum.htm

nononsense,

Thank you! I was trying to get your attention as your use and mention of this caliber of those few threads I have caught was spoken of highly. I attempted to pm you but I am still learning these forum uses and contacts.

I am still pleased and seemingly intent on this round as the .375 Ruger-they just are good calibers or from all I have gathered. I too have used the .375RUM and now have that sold as I am looking for CRF's more than anything else these days.

I e-mailed [email]infogunsandpowder.d[/email] for delivery information on large amounts of 9,3 x 64 RWS brass. I suspect them to reply in days or wks to come. I am going to hold of from the 9,3 x 62 and like you mentioned being different is what I seem to be about. I generally walk my own made trails in life and if it is a doer then I can do it.

Your brief mention although seemingly lengthy write here is appreciated-mahsii'cho!

I checked out last night in the gun writers forums in all the past topics and found not a mention really of the 9,3 x 64, lots on the x 62.

Guess due to othe american popular calibers here in the American country pushes this round in the dark. Too bad as all that I have gathered it is pretty stout.

I get a bit long winded but for a nonbelted round this is desirable. Next yr I suppose I will pick up a Winchester 1917 and have it made up to the .375 Ruger.

Again thanks for the reply nononsense-good thread.

nononsense,

That was an excellent post. I hope one day to own a 9.3.

Can't wait for the Ruger round to come out and be necked down.

Thanks,

Chandalar Jack and SU35,

You are both very kind but most of the credit goes to the other authors and more importantly Wilhelm Brenneke of course.

The case size of the 9.3 x 62 is the attribute that draws so many to the idea of using it. It's a simple fix from the standpoint that it is basically an '06 type case which is easy to get to feed and function through most of the standard M98's and virtually any of the modern LA receivers. It's also much less expensive for those that want to form cases from the '06 brass.

The 9.3 x 64 though is an oddball sort of case size that doesn't conform to any of the standard boltfaces or body diameters and you can't avoid modifying the boltface, rails and feed ramp. However, for those of us who like the unique, that only adds fuel to the fire. The same goes for the 6.5mm and the 8mm x 68 cases, just enough of an oddball size to put most people off.

The Hornady cases will be made to the standard 0.532" magnum boltface and a standard diameter and length made to fit in the modern LA receivers like a glove. For those that are anti-belt, there is rejoicing in the streets since the .375 Ruger will be sans belt. I'm looking forward to the original as well as getting a supply of cases to work with for other chambers.

I have some 9.5 x 66 vom Hofe (true .375) cases coming one of these days but it's up in the air as to when they will get shipped. That's another oddball to play with just for the experience. The 9.3 x 66 Sako is a dead deal since they don't have any plans to bring either rifles or ammunition into the States. The Ruger will solve that problem.



The 9.3 x 66 vom Hofe (or Westley Richards) are the two in the middle.

Cheers!

The 9,3x64 is a great round. I brought back 300 empty RWS hulls from my last overseas trip and plan on building one before too long. A buddy has one on a Pre-64 Winchester that got me interested in them. I also really like the 9,3x62 and wanted it's bigger brother.
I'm probably going to try 250gr TSX's for plains game and maybe a North Fork Cup Point solid for the nasties.
It's a real pity that Hornady didn't make the 376 Steyr a couple mm's longer so that we could have a ready supply of cheap convertable brass. But oh well the RWS stuff can be had with a little patience and it lasts next to forever properly handloaded...........................DJ

I'm new to the 9.3x64, having picked up a Mauser 99 {Voere action} last December. Took several months to aquire some brass but finally got 100 rounds from Huntington. My first random load with the Speer 270 gr groups into an inch so I'm pretty pleased. Wish I could report knocking off scores of big tough beasties with it in exotic places but I can't. I intend to blast a whitetail or 2 with it this season just to get in some field time with it. I really like the 9.3s. I have a CZ 9.3x62 and am going to grab the first Ruger #1 9.3x74R that comes available. Somewhere along the line I'll have a Mauser rebarreled to 9.3x57.

that looks like a TUG on the left. How is your record with that? Nice design. Isn't that lifted area of the bullet for cutting hair or something of the kind. Seems like Brenneke used some creative thinking there. Pretty spendy too I imagine. Where do you get your best buy on that?

C.J.,

I just reread this thread. I meant to respond to it when I first read it, but got distracted.

I jumped on the 9.3 Bandwagon in the early 90's after reading an article by Al Miller entitled; The Indomitable 9.3x62. At that time, the 9.3 bore was all but unknown. And I didn't even KNOW anyone who had one. Up to that point, I had seen only one at a gun show.

My first was an Interarms Mk-X mannlicher in .30-06 that I sent to Harry McGowan and had him copy the barrel. This rifle (with 20.25" bbl) never got the velocity that I thought it would. My best loads chrono just under 2400 f.p.s. with 270 gr. Speer. However, I am confidant that anything I point it at is going to stop, abruptly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have since added an original Mauser pre-war sporter in caliber, same.

I also have two 9.3x74R rifles. A custom Ruger #1 with tapered Oct bbl and an o/u double rifle. Plus a Ruger 1-S on order. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have added to my battery two 9.3x57 Huskys. One has never been D&T ed and the other has.

I have been considering another 9.3 Specifically a 9.3x64 Brenneke. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have only ever seen ONE for sale and that just recently. As soon as I can get a Lothar-Walther 9.3 bbl, I am going to commission one on a Mauser action. Probably a VZ-24. It will have either a 23 & 5/8" bbl or a 25" bbl. And I intend it to weight between 8 and 8.5 lbs without scope. I'd like the final wt of the rilfe to be around 9.5 lbs with scope mounted, 3-rds ammo, and sling. IOW, ready to hunt. Like Nonensense , I just have a liking for the odd and rare. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] Unfortuately the 9.3 bore has never been popularized in this country. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I don't believe the 9.3x64 is a dead round, but I don't think it will ever be popular in this country. But 9.3's have gained a substantial following. I think that those of us who like it will perpetuate and expand it's use. [/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"green"]Grasshopper [/color]

It's a shame there are no plans to bring the 9.3 x 66 Sako to the US. This cartridge with a 250 or 270 gr TSX at 2700 + with the 250 would be an ideal moose and mountain elk cartridge, fits in a light weight package and will drill a hole through anything , like a 35Whelen on 'roids. This would be the all round best cartridge for hunting British Columbia and anywhere big tough game live. An opinion based on extensive use of a 35whelen and 375HH, most of a life time on big game. Your experience may vary!

Furprick,

The solution to the 9.3x66 Sako is to get a hold of Z-Hat and have him chamber one up for you. He has basic brass in the long '06 size that will make the Sako cases just fine.

I don't have a use for the Sako variation right now simply because I have the 9.3 x 62 and the x64.

www.z-hat.com

Regards.

Realizing what a 35W and 375HH can do on large game , it makes sense to me at least that one should gravitate to calibers/cartridges that offer the best performance. the 9.3x66 sako falls between the 35W and the 375HH. The sako is on a basic '06 action,has ranging ability past 300yds, large frontal area when the right bullets are used. i guess on the down side it does not have the pizzazz of the new short and ultra mags. The whelen suffers from this as well, unjustly so. I have shot over 50 head of big game, deer is not big game where I live, with 7mags, 338win,375HH, 35whelen, 6.5x55SM, and 280Rem. I use the 6.5 for deer, 130gr TSX @ 2940fps, 35W for everything and 375HH gets used when I have a big bull moose tag. As I get older I am leaning toward the one rifle/cartridge that will do it all.The 9.3x66 has my attention.

the 9,3 x 64 is my do all and I am of the same mind as you and this rifle is being built as we speak. but I said that with my last 2 recent projects--.338-06's.

I would have to ask is it legal to use in Africa for all game? If not then it seems like too much trouble. As far as the other game goes the extra capacity of the 64 can't matter all that much does it?

There is the 375 H&H which is the all around cartridge.

Don't forget the 375 Ruger. That one might catch on.

No trouble at all- really. It is something I have always wanted to do and in a true Mauser, just seems fitting. The new Ruger 375--that might just be something for sure. I have a .375 RUM so that category is filled or not depends if this fella I am offering it to would like to have it. The .375's are a good hitter yessiree bob.