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21 pages so far.
My My! is that all?
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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I didn't listen to it. But, it makes sense to do a takedown where the suspects can't call in backup. However, that doesn't mean there wasn't coverage along some of the route and a lot of audio. I'm only slightly joking when I ask this.....Who uses cell phone to talk these days? I have only seen reference to texting in this event.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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21 pages so far.
My My! is that all?
Geno Hey - if Victoria's account was even slightly intelligible, the page count might double.  I feel sympathy for her, really. I can't help but wonder if that is the way she always talks (and someone should pay for that), or if she was still so rattled that she couldn't make much sense.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Consistent with what? Shawna Cox claims several times that the agents wanted them dead. So why aren't they? She says they had laser dots all over them while bullets were flying. Are the OSP and FBI such poor shots that they can't hit a target their lasers are on? And bullets bouncing off the window. She also resorts to a lot of "I don't know", "I guess", "my guess is...", and the like in the interview - while some of the time she is describing what she sees in the video that she didn't see in real time. Heck - she can't even get what she sees in the video right. She describes Finicum's body laying on the snow with his right hand on his chest and his left hand extended - exactly the opposite of what is plain to see. Oh - and don't forget...when she says he has no gun, she is describing the video - not her own eye witness account. I can't tell if he has a gun in his hand or not by the video. Can you?
My bias - if I have one - is actually towards the feds abusing their authority. Yet, I can't ignore that Ms. Cox seems to have succumbed to perception skewed by panic, ignorance, and her own bias. Therefore, I believe my eyes more than her.
Victoria claims Finicum's hands were up when he was shot and they were still up after he was dead on the ground. I invite you to look again at the video. She is just flat wrong about that. She seems to be claiming that Finicum was shot six times on the ground, which contradicts Cox's statement - but I'm not sure about that (the girl's statement is largely incoherent). And then there are the "ton of LEO vehicles". "Forty vehicles". I'm at a loss there. Where are all those other vehicles? In the trees in the deep snow?
Clearly, Victoria's perception is questionable as well.
Cox claims that the agents shot up the vehicle heavily after they exited it. When did they do that? For the 10+ minutes of the unedited video after they left the vehicle, the pickup is fairly surrounded with LEO who are clearly not shooting but attending to other business. They're not ducking for cover. So when did the truck annihilation begin?
I'm sure we are all dying to see detailed close-range photos of the vehicle after the action, but at this point, I have a hard time believing much of either of the women's accounts.
I would say they are consistent in that they both tell basically the same stories. They both say that the police fired at Ryan Payne without warning at the initial stop and that the firing continued after they left. They both say that were shot at many times after the car went off the road. They both describe the police firing what sounds like tear gas. Victoria describes the shooting of Lavoy while Shawna does not claim to see it herself. If the police actually fired that many shots, is it unreasonable that Shawna felt like they wanted them all dead? Is the question of right arm versus left arm really a critical detail that destroys the credibility of the rest her story? Couldn't this be an honest mistake or an error of memory regarding an insignificant detail? Shawna claims that there was no gun in Lavoy's hand. Does anyone, including the FBI, claim that he was successful in drawing a weapon? I haven't heard it. You said that you can't tell yourself if he had a gun in his hand in the video. How does this destroy her credibility? Yes, Victoria said Lavoy's hands were still up while he lay on the ground. So what? One arm was outstretched on the ground. The other appears to be on the body. Does this mean she is a liar? Does this really mean that the police didn't fire an unprovoked shot without warning at the first stop? Maybe they are lying. I don't know, but I don't see anything in the video which contradicts the important points of their story. I'm not saying either of them are lying. I suspect that they both have skewed perception due to their own bias and due to panic. I'm comparing that with what I see myself lacking in any panic and actually biased in their favor. Details do matter. Details that are perceived incorrectly bring other perceptions into doubt. The fact that Cox believes they wanted to kill her colors her perception of everything. I don't doubt that this is what she truly believes. It's not unusual for people who hold the same preconception to perceive events similarly. In fact, it's quite common. I make no claim of having decided exactly who is right and who is wrong in this even, but I also have no intention of going off half-cocked with a claim of murder. I see plenty of people who were not on-the-ground eye witnesses getting a lot of attention who have no problem at all in claiming murder by the feds without good evidence to back that up. Those people, I view suspiciously and question their motives. I agree with you for the most part. I am sure you have experienced two people telling the same story with some differences in the details. I think it is the result of mistakes, errors of memory, and differences in interpretation. Victoria said both of Lavoy's hands were up while he lay on the ground. In the video I could make out one arm outstretched while one appeared to be against the body. Perhaps she meant both were above the waist and she could see no firearm. Perhaps she really thinks she saw both arms outstretched. It would be hard to misinterpret a bullet hitting the car near Ryan Payne when he stuck his head out the window at the first stop though. I think they are either telling the truth about that or lying. I can't tell from the video.
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21 pages so far.
My My! is that all?
Geno That's funny. I have 51 pages so far. BTW, there is a more intelligible version of Shawna's testimony on one of the links above.
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Consistent with what? Shawna Cox claims several times that the agents wanted them dead. So why aren't they? She says they had laser dots all over them while bullets were flying. Are the OSP and FBI such poor shots that they can't hit a target their lasers are on? And bullets bouncing off the window. She also resorts to a lot of "I don't know", "I guess", "my guess is...", and the like in the interview - while some of the time she is describing what she sees in the video that she didn't see in real time. Heck - she can't even get what she sees in the video right. She describes Finicum's body laying on the snow with his right hand on his chest and his left hand extended - exactly the opposite of what is plain to see. Oh - and don't forget...when she says he has no gun, she is describing the video - not her own eye witness account. I can't tell if he has a gun in his hand or not by the video. Can you?
My bias - if I have one - is actually towards the feds abusing their authority. Yet, I can't ignore that Ms. Cox seems to have succumbed to perception skewed by panic, ignorance, and her own bias. Therefore, I believe my eyes more than her.
Victoria claims Finicum's hands were up when he was shot and they were still up after he was dead on the ground. I invite you to look again at the video. She is just flat wrong about that. She seems to be claiming that Finicum was shot six times on the ground, which contradicts Cox's statement - but I'm not sure about that (the girl's statement is largely incoherent). And then there are the "ton of LEO vehicles". "Forty vehicles". I'm at a loss there. Where are all those other vehicles? In the trees in the deep snow?
Clearly, Victoria's perception is questionable as well.
Cox claims that the agents shot up the vehicle heavily after they exited it. When did they do that? For the 10+ minutes of the unedited video after they left the vehicle, the pickup is fairly surrounded with LEO who are clearly not shooting but attending to other business. They're not ducking for cover. So when did the truck annihilation begin?
I'm sure we are all dying to see detailed close-range photos of the vehicle after the action, but at this point, I have a hard time believing much of either of the women's accounts.
I would say they are consistent in that they both tell basically the same stories. They both say that the police fired at Ryan Payne without warning at the initial stop and that the firing continued after they left. They both say that were shot at many times after the car went off the road. They both describe the police firing what sounds like tear gas. Victoria describes the shooting of Lavoy while Shawna does not claim to see it herself. If the police actually fired that many shots, is it unreasonable that Shawna felt like they wanted them all dead? Is the question of right arm versus left arm really a critical detail that destroys the credibility of the rest her story? Couldn't this be an honest mistake or an error of memory regarding an insignificant detail? Shawna claims that there was no gun in Lavoy's hand. Does anyone, including the FBI, claim that he was successful in drawing a weapon? I haven't heard it. You said that you can't tell yourself if he had a gun in his hand in the video. How does this destroy her credibility? Yes, Victoria said Lavoy's hands were still up while he lay on the ground. So what? One arm was outstretched on the ground. The other appears to be on the body. Does this mean she is a liar? Does this really mean that the police didn't fire an unprovoked shot without warning at the first stop? Maybe they are lying. I don't know, but I don't see anything in the video which contradicts the important points of their story. I'm not saying either of them are lying. I suspect that they both have skewed perception due to their own bias and due to panic. I'm comparing that with what I see myself lacking in any panic and actually biased in their favor. Details do matter. Details that are perceived incorrectly bring other perceptions into doubt. The fact that Cox believes they wanted to kill her colors her perception of everything. I don't doubt that this is what she truly believes. It's not unusual for people who hold the same preconception to perceive events similarly. In fact, it's quite common. I make no claim of having decided exactly who is right and who is wrong in this even, but I also have no intention of going off half-cocked with a claim of murder. I see plenty of people who were not on-the-ground eye witnesses getting a lot of attention who have no problem at all in claiming murder by the feds without good evidence to back that up. Those people, I view suspiciously and question their motives. I agree with you for the most part. I am sure you have experienced two people telling the same story with some differences in the details. I think it is the result of mistakes, errors of memory, and differences in interpretation. Victoria said both of Lavoy's hands were up while he lay on the ground. In the video I could make out one arm outstretched while one appeared to be against the body. Perhaps she meant both were above the waist and she could see no firearm. Perhaps she really thinks she saw both arms outstretched. It would be hard to misinterpret a bullet hitting the car near Ryan Payne when he stuck his head out the window at the first stop though. I think they are either telling the truth about that or lying. I can't tell from the video. I think that would be hard to misinterpret too - but don't forget...."bullets bouncing off the window". Expanding a little on the subject... A lot of space has been spent on people claiming that Finicum was not reaching for a gun but grasping a wound. I clearly see (over many times of looking) Finicum pulling his jacket out with his left hand. I ask you - if you are wounded, do you pull at clothing as a reaction? If I am hit thus, I'm pretty sure that if I think at all to put my hand on it (ostensibly to stop bleeding) I'm going to press the spot as quickly as possible through whatever clothing is there. I'm not lifting my jacket to get a better look first. Finicum's actions shown on the video are very consistent with reaching for a weapon - yet many people (non-witnesses) are loudly proclaiming...against available evidence...that they are not. You have to filter such noise out of the mix if you want to curb your bias.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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BTW, there is a more intelligible version of Shawna's testimony on one of the links above. Saw it. It's Victoria's account that is mostly incoherent. I haven't seen or heard any from here that is any better.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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I haven't read but a couple of pages. But I wish the Feds would have used similar tactics in MO and Baltimre.
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I don't know what the bullets bouncing off the windows was all about either. Perhaps some non-lethal rounds were fired. Perhaps there were ricochets which happened to hit at the right angle. Perhaps they were pieces of something else hitting the window secondary to gunfire, flash bang grenades, or tear gas. It just seems like a very strange detail to invent.
As far as lifting the jacket, I think I might press on the wound underneath the jacket if it were already open. I really don't feel comfortable saying what Lavoy was doing. He seemed to put his hands to his body at least twice. If he were going to a gun why didn't he produce one? Perhaps he couldn't because he kept getting shot? Maybe he did produce a gun? No one seems to be saying that at this point, including the FBI if I remember their statement correctly. Maybe he wasn't going for a gun at all?
Last edited by SCT; 02/02/16.
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Campfire Regular
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Can't imagine lethal bullets bouncing off a standard issue truck. Rubber bullets or pepper sponges (which the FBI says were used) perhaps. If law enforcement thought they needed to be dead, they would all be dead. To see what happens when that is the case, check the pictures of the SUV being driven by the terrorists in San Benadino a while back.
Al
Spend your life wisely.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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21 pages so far.
My My! is that all?
Geno That's funny. I have 51 pages so far. BTW, there is a more intelligible version of Shawna's testimony on one of the links above. I think somewhere I read that the difference in pages is from settings or perhaps what "device" you're looking at the site with. I only use a "real" computer of the laptop variety, not a phone or "pad". Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Can't imagine lethal bullets bouncing off a standard issue truck. Rubber bullets or pepper sponges (which the FBI says were used) perhaps. If law enforcement thought they needed to be dead, they would all be dead. To see what happens when that is the case, check the pictures of the SUV being driven by the terrorists in San Benadino a while back. This ^^^^ Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Consistent with what? Shawna Cox claims several times that the agents wanted them dead. So why aren't they? She says they had laser dots all over them while bullets were flying. Are the OSP and FBI such poor shots that they can't hit a target their lasers are on? And bullets bouncing off the window. She also resorts to a lot of "I don't know", "I guess", "my guess is...", and the like in the interview - while some of the time she is describing what she sees in the video that she didn't see in real time. Heck - she can't even get what she sees in the video right. She describes Finicum's body laying on the snow with his right hand on his chest and his left hand extended - exactly the opposite of what is plain to see. Oh - and don't forget...when she says he has no gun, she is describing the video - not her own eye witness account. I can't tell if he has a gun in his hand or not by the video. Can you?
My bias - if I have one - is actually towards the feds abusing their authority. Yet, I can't ignore that Ms. Cox seems to have succumbed to perception skewed by panic, ignorance, and her own bias. Therefore, I believe my eyes more than her.
Victoria claims Finicum's hands were up when he was shot and they were still up after he was dead on the ground. I invite you to look again at the video. She is just flat wrong about that. She seems to be claiming that Finicum was shot six times on the ground, which contradicts Cox's statement - but I'm not sure about that (the girl's statement is largely incoherent). And then there are the "ton of LEO vehicles". "Forty vehicles". I'm at a loss there. Where are all those other vehicles? In the trees in the deep snow?
Clearly, Victoria's perception is questionable as well.
Cox claims that the agents shot up the vehicle heavily after they exited it. When did they do that? For the 10+ minutes of the unedited video after they left the vehicle, the pickup is fairly surrounded with LEO who are clearly not shooting but attending to other business. They're not ducking for cover. So when did the truck annihilation begin?
I'm sure we are all dying to see detailed close-range photos of the vehicle after the action, but at this point, I have a hard time believing much of either of the women's accounts.
I would say they are consistent in that they both tell basically the same stories. They both say that the police fired at Ryan Payne without warning at the initial stop and that the firing continued after they left. They both say that were shot at many times after the car went off the road. They both describe the police firing what sounds like tear gas. Victoria describes the shooting of Lavoy while Shawna does not claim to see it herself. If the police actually fired that many shots, is it unreasonable that Shawna felt like they wanted them all dead? Is the question of right arm versus left arm really a critical detail that destroys the credibility of the rest her story? Couldn't this be an honest mistake or an error of memory regarding an insignificant detail? Shawna claims that there was no gun in Lavoy's hand. Does anyone, including the FBI, claim that he was successful in drawing a weapon? I haven't heard it. You said that you can't tell yourself if he had a gun in his hand in the video. How does this destroy her credibility? Yes, Victoria said Lavoy's hands were still up while he lay on the ground. So what? One arm was outstretched on the ground. The other appears to be on the body. Does this mean she is a liar? Does this really mean that the police didn't fire an unprovoked shot without warning at the first stop? Maybe they are lying. I don't know, but I don't see anything in the video which contradicts the important points of their story. I'm not saying either of them are lying. I suspect that they both have skewed perception due to their own bias and due to panic. I'm comparing that with what I see myself lacking in any panic and actually biased in their favor. Details do matter. Details that are perceived incorrectly bring other perceptions into doubt. The fact that Cox believes they wanted to kill her colors her perception of everything. I don't doubt that this is what she truly believes. It's not unusual for people who hold the same preconception to perceive events similarly. In fact, it's quite common. I make no claim of having decided exactly who is right and who is wrong in this even, but I also have no intention of going off half-cocked with a claim of murder. I see plenty of people who were not on-the-ground eye witnesses getting a lot of attention who have no problem at all in claiming murder by the feds without good evidence to back that up. Those people, I view suspiciously and question their motives. I agree with you for the most part. I am sure you have experienced two people telling the same story with some differences in the details. I think it is the result of mistakes, errors of memory, and differences in interpretation. Victoria said both of Lavoy's hands were up while he lay on the ground. In the video I could make out one arm outstretched while one appeared to be against the body. Perhaps she meant both were above the waist and she could see no firearm. Perhaps she really thinks she saw both arms outstretched. It would be hard to misinterpret a bullet hitting the car near Ryan Payne when he stuck his head out the window at the first stop though. I think they are either telling the truth about that or lying. I can't tell from the video. I think that would be hard to misinterpret too - but don't forget...."bullets bouncing off the window". Expanding a little on the subject... A lot of space has been spent on people claiming that Finicum was not reaching for a gun but grasping a wound. I clearly see (over many times of looking) Finicum pulling his jacket out with his left hand. I ask you - if you are wounded, do you pull at clothing as a reaction? If I am hit thus, I'm pretty sure that if I think at all to put my hand on it (ostensibly to stop bleeding) I'm going to press the spot as quickly as possible through whatever clothing is there. I'm not lifting my jacket to get a better look first. Finicum's actions shown on the video are very consistent with reaching for a weapon - yet many people (non-witnesses) are loudly proclaiming...against available evidence...that they are not. You have to filter such noise out of the mix if you want to curb your bias. FreeMe, you are trying to make sense making sense. STOP MAKING SENSE! DO NOT POST CLOSE POST Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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I don't know what the bullets bouncing off the windows was all about either. Perhaps some non-lethal rounds were fired. Perhaps there were ricochets which happened to hit at the right angle. Perhaps they were pieces of something else hitting the window secondary to gunfire, flash bang grenades, or tear gas. It just seems like a very strange detail to invent. At this point, I don't think they invented it. I just don't think they really knew what was going on. As far as lifting the jacket, I think I might press on the wound underneath the jacket if it were already open. I really don't feel comfortable saying what Lavoy was doing. He seemed to put his hands to his body at least twice. If he were going to a gun why didn't he produce one? Perhaps he couldn't because he kept getting shot? Maybe he did produce a gun? No one seems to be saying that at this point, including the FBI if I remember their statement correctly. Maybe he wasn't going for a gun at all? Right now, I'm going with....indecision gets you killed, just a little slower than the wrong decision. Finicum's activity that day was marked with indecision. Look how long they sat and the false starts before making the run for it. It's more than plausible that this was just more of the same. Plausible is a dangerous word though, I admit. I'm just more comfortable using it when not accusing someone of murder.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Oracle
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That's funny. I have 51 pages so far. I think somewhere I read that the difference in pages is from settings or perhaps what "device" you're looking at the site with. I only use a "real" computer of the laptop variety, not a phone or "pad". Geno I have 11 pages now, so there. It's in preferences under "my stuff", BTW.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Boy, I've read some pretty stupid dialog on the CF but this thread ranks among the stupidest.... RD, While this thread has had it's moments, I feel many responses were thoughtful and considered. Throughout much of this a real discussion is happening. Like lots of threads, you sort of have to read around the inevitable potholes. I haven't read anything here but the usual KooKooness, wild ass guesses, quarter backing with nothing to support positions other than wild imaginations for the last 10 pages or more. Are you saying there were actual facts being discussed earlier ?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well not in your posts.
;-)
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire Ranger
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The funniest stuff I've read here were the assumptions about why this guy was reaching into a left hand pocket while the LEO's "knew he was right handed". That is really over the top brother.
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Campfire Ranger
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Don't believe anything you hear,
and only half of what you see,
and much less if it is on video.
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