Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Anyone else think the 16 gauge is the perfect gauge?

Have a Model 12, Ithaca 37, and a Browning 3 shot in this gauge and have never wanted anything more for upland game.

Its hard to beat for upland birds. Carries like a 20, kills like a 12..

I thought I might try that, bought a nice model 12 and a case of shells. I realized that a 20 does carry like a 20 and still kills stuff dead. A 12 still kills like a 12 and I don't have to look for 16 gauge shells.

You would be surprised at how nice an English12 gauge carries with 2 1/2 inch chambers at 6 1/2 pounds. It still kills great and is easy on the shoulder...

I'd go for that. A 16 really is in the sweet spot. At the end of the day though, all you need is a 2 1/2" 20ga with s flat if RST 7/8oz #5's at 1125fps to kill any upland birds in the US.

If that's what floats your boat, then it's perfect for you. The 12 is so very versatile and the ammo is more readily available and much cheaper. I never saw the need for it myself and I guess that was the consensus as the marketplace has relegated it to basically curio status. It can't do anything that a 12 or 20 can do as well, more economically and with less hassle.

That's not why it was regulated to curio status. You can thank the competition world for that. Hunters have always loved the 16, but when it was left out of the competition world, people moved towards the bores that could be shot in competition. That's why there are so many classic 16's on the market compared to today's shotguns.

Yes.

Yes!

How is the competition world to blame for that? One can use a 16 ga in lieu of the 12 in Skeet, trap and sporting clays etc. You can use a smaller gauge in any larger gauge event, you just can't use a bigger one. There is noting stopping you. I know/knew a lot of folks who shot their 20s in the 12 ga events. If anything, one can thank skeet for keeping the 28 ga alive. It didn't kill off the 16 cause there is no rule forbidding them from being used in 12 ga events. There's just no advantage to them. One ounce loads from a 12 or 16 at 1200 fps = broken birds. So, why not shoot the 12, which is far more versatile and less expensive to buy?

A one ounce load in a 16 gauge is about a good as is gets, put that in a Model 12, with a solid rib and you have reached perfection! At least good enough for me....

In 1926, when they came up with skeet, they didn't make a category for 16ga. While it is true you can use a 16 in 12 ga skeet, nobody who truely wants to win would limit themselves. After they came up with skeet, the shell manufactures began dumping massive amounts of money into developing winning loads for each class of skeet. But what was left out? 16 gauge! So ammo became much more available for 12, 20, 28, and 410 bores. That eventually put 16ga guns on the back burner in the US, but they are still widely popular in Europe. In the late 40's, 12ga guns comprised about 50% of all shotgun sales, while 16ga carried about 25%, and all others combined made up the remaining 25%. Now, as far as guns go, unless your talking about 6.5lb English Doubles with 2.5" 12ga chambers, 16 ga guns typically cary MUCH better in the field. A 16 ga gun can be built on a 20ga frame, thus giving you a gun that carries like a 20 but kills like a 12. In the ultra high velocity 3.5" super magnum break your shoulder off world, The 16 will never get any respect, but for those who realize the 16 throws as good a pattern as a gun can throw, and makes the perfect upland shotgun, there is a reason so many double gun manufactures sell a TON of 16ga guns! For an upland hunter like myself, a 12 ga is garbage because of the weight.... Unless we are talking about $100k British Bespoke guns.

Love the write up! Dont really agree with the less than 12 ga in the 12 ga event as LOTS of guys shoot 20's due to recoil.

And we can learn much from the Brits when it comes to shotguns..

Long live the 16!

What truly killed off the 16 was manufacturing consolidation. Starting in the 60s the trend was to use a 12 ga frame for the 16 which gave the 16 no advantage. If one is going to carry 12 ga weight, they may as well carry a 12 ga. Light weight 12 ga guns as well as the hype of the 3" 20 ga did no good but it was the weight issue which sealed the 16's fate.

Then a brief resurgence in the 16 ga occurred in the late 80s and some were built on the 20 ga frame. They carried well and made good upland guns. 20 years later (see kind of a trend?) the 16 popped up again but the result will be short lived. The requirement of non-toxic shot will be the death knell of the 16 as it is not large enough to make good use of steel shot and it is in too little demand to garner the development of affordable non-toxic shot of other types. Even the 20 ga will suffer greatly as it too will have difficulties with affordable non-toxic shot.

Almost exclusively competition shooters are using heavier shotguns than most want to carry in the field. So yes, you can use them in competition, but if you are going to shoot 1 ounce then it might as well be a 12 in the 12 events. Even the other sub-gauge competition events are usually shot with 12ga weight shot guns. The vast majority wanting their sub-gauge competition shotgun to match as close as possible their 12 ga in handling dynamics. Either sub-gauge on 12 frames, tubed or with carrier barrels. As always there are exceptions, but the serious shooters try to match them up.

The 16 shines in the field on lighter weight frames and offerings. There are good shells out there for the 16, but you usually have to order them. Which isn't a big deal. When it comes to good shells Winchester, Remington and Federal are not the place to look.

Some have been predicting the death of the 16 since at least the 60's. It is still here....

There's nothing wrong with the 16 ga per se but the market place has shown that most think the 12 is the perfect gauge and how can one argue that. You can get anywhere from 7/8 oz loads to 2 oz turkey loads. There are plenty of light weight good handling 12 gauge guns out there. It'll do anything the 16 can do and more. If one wants a lighter shotgun there is the 20 which covers the 7/8 oz to 1 1/4 oz load range. The 16 is a good tweener but perfect?? I just don't see how that statement is anything but extremely subjective.

Some think the 20 is perfect with 7/8th, 16's with 1 and 12's with 1 1/8th. Old school perhaps, but I happen to be one of them.
The fact they can stuff 1 1/4 into a 20 doesn't necessarily make it better. Especially when you make a 20 at the weight it should be.

Bore diameter pretty much determines what load is perfect for that gauge in giving full even patterns. With the 16, 1 ounce is where it shines.

Perfect upland gun in the right frame size in my opinion. I am a 16 gauge Model 12 fan. 6.5 pounds or so with 28" barrel and built on a frame shared with the 20 gauge Model 12. Plus Model 12s pattern well and a 16 gauge with Remington Express 1 1/8 ounce 6s or 4s will knock pheasants down way out there.

I am really wanting to get my hands on one of the new Browning A5 Sweet 16s. I am hoping a 5.7 pound gun with a Benelli-esque design will revitalize the 16.

DMD,

I doubt if it will revitalize the 16. Shooters have been brainwashed for too long on the merits of the 20 and 12 for upland duty. Still nice to see them offering a new model in the 16.

The 16 gauge is not perfect for every shotgun use just like no particular rifle or handgun cartridge is.

That's why there are so many.

Every little bit helps, though. I like having an interesting new model out there.

Birds fly South in the Winter.

No

Perfect is subjective. Shrapnel's LW 2.5in 12 with 1oz loads will do everything a 16 with 1oz will do and probably patten better doing it. Due to less shot being deformed going down a larger tube which means more shot should arrive on target at the same time. Shotguns like that are usually not seen when it comes to American offerings.

At one time you could have them made here, but it's been a long time.

CSMC will make you what ever you want right here in the USA! But your going to pay for it.

Many people forget that there's more to a shotgun than just how much shot you can stuff in the shell. 1 1/4oz 3" 20ga shells throw notoriously [bleep] patterns. 1 1/8oz 16 ga shells typically throw about the best pattern anyone could ask for! One major difference between US and Europe, is in the US, most people buy the newest hottest semi-auto whiz bang with super no jam technology. In Europe, they shoot doubles! In the double world, the 16 is still VERY popular, and can be had in every make of double gun. In the US, 12ga is king due to so many people hunting ducks and geese, and in general, we have very poor taste in shotguns. With that said, the 16 is still probably the best bore for upland hunters IMO. Carries like a 20, hits like a 12.... Then again, I have no use for semi-auto shotguns and believe shotguns were perfected about 100 years ago.

Shrapnel has the right idea. I have an old LC Smith 12 ga that weighs 6.5 lbs, and I shoot one ounce loads in it. I would like it just as well if it were a 16 ga, but I don't think I would like it more.

Shotguns are about weight, balance, and fit, hopefully with a really good trigger or (preferably) two. Gauge is just something you need to know when you order cartridges.

Truth be told, I could be happy with either a 12, 16, or 20 from now 'til when they drop me in the ground- you can shoot stuff dead and break targets with them all. There was a time when I preached the virtues of the 16 over all others but since then I've mellowed a bit. All I ask, dear lord, is that it be a proportionately sized double!

I like the 16 but I could do without the hassle of finding ammo. A light 12 is perfection to me, nothing patterns like a bigger bore. A one ounce load patterns great out of a 12 and is quite a bit less expensive.

I think the 3" 20 ga is probably what hurt the 16 ga. But again ammo is more expensive. A one once load of 20 ga is 15 bucks a good load of 1 ounce 12 ga ammo is about 7.

Our local Cabelas always seems to have tons of 16 bore ammo

Have a supplier close to home that sells 16Ga Rio's: 1oz, 1300FPS either 5, 6, 7.5 or 8's@ just over $77. for a flat of 10 boxes.

I find it's easier to call RST and have a flat delivered to my front steps than it is to weed through all the chit shells the box stores sell. It doesn't get any easier to buy shells than a 2 minute phone call. Hell, I don't even need to put my beer down.

Yes I do.

Love those original Auto Five pic's...

For upland, I'll take a very light 20 gauge.
For waterfowl, I'll take a stout 12 gauge.

If the 16 gauge 3" had caught on, then maybe it would be an ideal all-around, but since it didn't, I don't see where the 16 actually fits nowadays.

The 16 fits right up against my shoulder, that's were they fit, all ten 16s in my safes and the two on the way presently.

Yeah, I probably do need an intervention.

What is touted about the 12ga with it's more open bore than the 16 holds true for the 16 when compared to the 20ga.

Since using mostly 20ga and 16ga, it's strange to hoist the average 12 anymore, but I do still use 12ga guns, especially on late season chuckar and pheasants.

Don't know about "perfect" but I certainly enjoy the three 16GA shotguns I hunt with. I also own and hunt with several 12GA shotguns. I mostly use the 16GA guns for upland birds and rabbits and use the 12GA guns for waterfowl and turkey (occasionally I use the 16GA A-5 for turkey). As other's have mentioned ammo is no problem when you can mail order.

My 16 gauge guns:
Browning White Lightning with SD pheasants.


Browning Auto-5 with eastern tom in NC.


Winchester M-12 with downeast rabbits.

The more stuff I shoot with a 16 the more I like it. Im thinking the guys who are not big fans of it simply have not use it much, never heard anyone say they didnt like it after giving it a solid run.

1 oz of #4 crushes late season roosters.

I love the 16

I started with a sixteen 870 back in the day and have always been a fan. I currently have 3 and unless one is after geese and or turkeys I have never found it lacking . Actually a high brass load of 6s would probably do a turkey in quite well. As to ammo I have never had a problem getting ammo despite popular internet legend mostly perpetuated by people that don't own 16s. Having said all of that as Shrapnel stated early on in this thread an oz of shot from a 20 ga works pretty much as well as a oz of shot is pretty much an oz of shot in the field regardless of bore size. All the babble about square loads etc is pretty much in the same realm as the ammo issue mostly an Internet discussion point.

I think a 16 on a 20 frame is sweet. I would love to have a Merkel 1620 with both sets of barrels.

Bought a Dickinson SxS 16 this fall and it's really growing on me. Need to get the triggers lightened but other than that I really like it. Reloading is the best way to get around the ammo scarcity. I load 7/8oz for clay targets, 1oz for small upland hunting and 1 1/8oz-Nickeled 5s for wild pheasants. The trim 16 carries better than my Beretta 391 12 ga the classic lines just seem to belong in the field.

For those interested, the pre-855,000 Ithaca 37 in 16 gauge were built on the 20 gauge frame (i.e. they shared a lightweight frame). They are nice guns.

I like the 16. Used to shoot a few birds with my dad's old Ithaca 37 in 16 gauge and recently bought this one from FieldGrade.


(Dakota Deer, just looked at my dad's 37 and it is 352,xxx serial number. Very light shotgun and great to carry but I have never been able to consistently hit birds with it. The full choke probably doesn't help.)

Ammo is available in our one little shop and you can even find it in one of the three gas stations in town.

6.25lbs of sweetness.




Fancy ammo even shows up in the mail.
(Ole's recommendation of nickel plated #5's...)





But of course it only works on gentlemen's hunts...

Hey Sam.....have you tried any of those PMC 6's I sent you....how do you like them....

Charlie, don't think I have. They are on top of the safe in the 'ammo pile' and must have got covered up. Too much chit and I can't even remember what or where!

I like 16s and own several.

I've been hearing for many years what a 'hassle' it is to find 16 ga. ammo, and how much more expensive it is compared to other gauges. I've never had any trouble finding 16 ga. shells, though there isn't the variety of loads available that there is in 12s and 20s. Up until the last 3 or so years I never felt the price differential was all that significant if you compared high-brass 16s to high-brass 12s and 20s, or 16 ga. 'field' loads to 12 or 20 ga. 'field' loads. However, in the ammo shortages of the last couple of years, I've noticed the prices of 16 ga. factory ammo has become significantly higher than equivalent 12s or 20s, and I have to suspect some retailers are charging those higher prices simply because they believe people expect 16s to be more expensive.

You can get Herter's brand 16's at Cabela's right now for $52.99 case price for 6's, $54.99 a case for 8's.

You won't find it any cheaper unless you can get free shipping with a coupon.

I used the 6's on preserve pheasants and they worked great!

Yup.....think it's almost the perfect shotgun when built on a 16 gauge frame.

When I was about 12 and starting to hunt, I begged for a 16 ga. model 12 with a 28" barrel and a modified choke.. Never got it.. I have often thought how things would be if I had got that shotgun..

In a few years, when I could buy my own shotgun, I went for a 12.. Have had everything but a 16!!

I own a few shotguns in 12, 16 and 20 gàuge that are within an ounçe or two of 6 lbs and àll of them are a decent fit. I shoot the same one ounce load in all of them for hunting.

If someone asked which killed better I couldn't tell them because they all seem to work just fine. The light 12 feels more at home chasing grouse and woodcock with it's 25" barrels but shines on pheasants over pointers. I started with a 16 gà ànd use it for everything from snipe to çoyotes(in a drilling) ànd all my upland 16s have 28" barrels feel better in open country. The 20s have long and short barrels ànd seem to work everywhere.

I shoot the 12 gauges most at clays just because it is easier to load for.

5hat didn't help much did it.

Love all my sixteens. A whole safe full of them. And a new A-5 on order.

People ask me why I shoot sixteens.
I tell them its so they can't bum shells off of me.

You've had better luck with RST than I have. I've tried for three years to get them to return a phone call or email and to date, despite multiple attempts on my part, have never been contacted by them. I have tried their "notify me" feature on their website several times in an effort to get some of their non toxic loads. To no avail I might add. I gave up and figured they were out of business. If they aren't they should be with that kind of customer care.

RST loaded NICE shot it hasn't been availible for a couple of years. I load ITX for my waterfowl and non-toxic upland. Bismuth is available.

Any other loads are readily available by mail order, I keep a couple of cases of Herters 8s a4ound but I do that with my 12 & 20 also. I haven't bought a box of shotgun shells in a store for years.

RIO is loading Bismuth 16 ga shells in 4&6 plus Hevi Shot loads there Classic Doubles in a non-toxic round.

Depending on what I am hunting-I have use for the 20,16,and 12.Just like I don't like to use one rifle caliber for everything.It seems like the younger generation has no interest in the 16 gauge and I am seeing more deals for these shotguns then in the past.

I have some of the Classic doubles and Rio Bismuth for my old guns and reload ITX and bismuth as well. All good stuff for keeping the old ones shooting.

as it has been said they all have their place but when I grouse hunt I always use one of my 16 dbl's because game is scarce and I owe it to my setter's to do my part , 1 oz seems to have the shortest shot string, 16's cause illness so send yours to me and save yourself.

I posted this a few years ago on another forum but it's still true today regarding the 16 gauge.

A man who identifies himself as a 16 gauge shooter is instantly elevated in "coolness" in any firearms circle. It immediately signifies one as being of good taste and judgement. If the shooter's firearm happens to be a fine English or high grade American double wearing an exceptional piece of french walnut and bearing the evidence of much use but great care, he will be spoken of in reverential tones. The only shooters who could hope to rival him are those who shoot fine doubles in 28, short 10, and 2 1/2" 12 bore.

You will be found to be more interesting anywhere hunters and shooters gather. New shooters will instantly recognize you as the final word in all things shotgun. Women respond to men of good taste and refinement and will find you more attractive. Dogs are astute judges of character and will hunt better for you. In fact your best friend's dog may hunt better for you than him with his synthetic stocked jamamatic. Being a 16 gauge shooter, you are also gracious enough to hunt with him despite his lack of taste and character. You will essentially be the shooting fraternity's version of the world's most interesting man.

There are many shotgun gauges because there are so many shotgun uses!

Just like the rifle and handgun calibers.

The 16 is a little big for me in a double for upland. So many uses!

I definitely think 16's are the perfect upland gauge, although I like using my 20's for rabbits, 12's for ducks and 10's for geese....

Anyway this thread got me thinking about my 16's. I'm up to 15 in my head right now. I probably forgot at least 1 or 2. They just sorta show up and never leave!

Winchester Model 12 Skeet
Ithaca 37
LC Smith Feather Weight
Parker Trojan
A. Fox Late Style B
A. Fox Late Style A
A. Fox Sterlingworth ejector
A. Fox Sterlingworth ejector
A. Fox Sterlingworth
A. Fox Sterlingworth
A. Fox Sterlingworth
Samuel Buckley Damascus
French Guild Gun
English T. Wild Hammer Gun
Masquelier ejector

Somewhere in this thread it was mentioned 12 & 20-s do as well as the 16. Agree on the 12. DO NOT agree on the 20. A 20 ga is pattern challenged no matter what you put in it.
That said, as far as breaking clays or killing game birds... putting the bird in the pattern supplants anything else for effectiveness. The effete little 410 is more deadly than a 3 1/2" 12 if you aren't on target with the 12 & are on with the 410.
BTW I have about a dozen 16-s, mod 31, mod 1897, mod 59 remmy, sportsman 48 remmy, belgian guild gun sxs, marlin 90, 3 mod 37 ith. & some strays around here...

"Carries like a 20, hits like a 12" works for me.

Mart, great synopsis....

I have had several and till have one citori. I like it but I like to use all gauges, 410, 28, 20, 16 and 12. I just enjoy switching and shooting different gauges and guns. I'm not married to any of them.

It is my favorite and only upland gauge that I use any more for grouse and pheasants. I have two 16 gauge pump guns, a Winchester Model 12 and a Remington 31. The Winchester is a little lighter at 6 7/8 lbs compared to the Remington which wwighs in at 7 1/4. Remington has a smoother action and heavy barrel that makes its better on long crossing shots. Both very nice guns. Never felt undergound. I have made some long range shots that left my hunting buddies looking at each other. They all use 12's.

It's all I shot before steel shot came along. I had a trio, Remington 11, Lefever Nitro and Remington 870. I'm down to the 870 but I think it's time for a SxS 16 again.

My favorite upland gun is a BRNO SxS sidelock 16 bore that I had opened up to .005" and .015". I have a neat old, pretty high condition, Hopkins and Allen SxS 16 bore that was given to me by a friend. I still need to get it out.

I have used 16 gauge shotguns a fair bit and as long as they are built on properly sized frames, I really like them. I don't find it difficult to find ammo these days, even in fairly out of the way places, but generally avoid that by having a flat or two of shells under the back seat of the pickup.

Last year, I bought one of the 16 gauge Dickinsons at Cabela's to use as a 'hard use' double. It has been great so far and has killed a pile of birds. Here is a photo with Gretchen the Wunderhund in Wisconsin last October:



And with some Gambel's quail taken in Arizona in January:



Here is my minty Model 12 16 gauge, stolen from our own GF1, out in the chukar hills this winter. Notice the close proximity of the gun to wet rocks, it happens in the real world.



I also have a very high condition Fox Sterlingworth ejector with a 15.25" factory LOP and 28" barrels choked IC and modified inbound from Vintage Firearms. It will be out after dusky grouse and band tailed pigeon in Southern Utah in September, then back to the lake cabin in Wisconsin for the first two weeks of October.

Ahhh, so many birds, so little time.

Best,

Chet

Tell me about the Dickinson? Are they made by someone else? They look like a Ugartechea, which I love.

They are made by Akus in Turkey. They have triggerplate actions and thinwall chokes without any bulging in the barrels. Really a nice gun for the money. My 16 weighs six pounds eight ounces.

Man I had better get on the ball and find a 16 gauge. We have a single shot 28 gauge and I do covet a 10 one day

If I was in need of a SxS I would be all over the Dickinson which, I believe, is what S&W was selling four or five years ago. They are a very well made piece.

Short tens are fun and go a long ways towards elevating one to "very cool."

Toaded into a nice, kinda rare, 16 bore today. Its one of the real early, late 50's I figure, 870 Wingmaster. The best part is its a vent rib, SKEET choke! Factory tube. Nice clean old shooter.

Wow... a 870 "Skeet" in 16 gauge. Now that's a rare one. A Mec 600 in 16 is coming to your loading room soon.

Doc

LOL!! Im not sure its a "true" Skeet grade Doc, it does not say SA on it but its cool!

Glad I stocked up on Herters 1 oz cases :-)

I have a old Model 12 16 gauge that is old enough to require the 2 1/2 inch shells which I get from RST. Fun gun to shoot doves/pheasants with.

Had that same solid rib M12 16 gauge as a young man and thought it was perfect.
Best $90.00 that I ever spent (1977)

Could find a full case of 1 1/8 #7.5 shells at the same price 12/20 gauge ammo just about everywhere..

Unfortunately I sold it to pay bills after a car wreck.

You might want to take up fishing ...........