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Well here goes....

After lots of reading, talking (listening) to folks, hesitation, and cold starts.....I'm finally ready to try my hand at Black Powder.

The good folks up in Big Timber gave me just the nudge I needed to put together my first loads for my Long Range Express in 45-120.

A couple of $$ later and some other folks at Buffalo Arms shipped me some GOEX Fg, 0.060" veggie fiber wads, and a few 545 gr boolits.

I'm planning on getting to the range tomorrow to see how it does.

Is there any advice you Gentleman may have on shooting this rifle?

I have two loads to try - one with 110 gr and one with 105. In both cases, I have the base of the bullet seated against the wad and the ogive is kissing the lands. Powder is compressed 0.250" and 0.125" respectivly. COAL with this combo is 4.080"

Thanks




Last edited by m1919; 02/08/16.
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Hold FIRMLY to your shoulder!!! 105-110 grains wid a 545 will ROCK your world!! My favorite cruelty!! MY 45/110 with 105 grains and a 540 PP fired by my brother (who didn't listen)
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Sound advice Twin....I'll take it!

Couple pics of the product and the rifle.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Any idea how the recoil from these loads will compare to full test 500 grain loads in a 458 WM?




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Recoil impulse is heavy but slower than a modern hard kicker. The rifle you have appears to be about 14 lbs which will dampen recoil pretty well. Best to shoot off of buffler sticks (like in the pic). Benchresting one of these animals gets a LOT of attention!!


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Nice rifle.

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Originally Posted by m1919


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I'd seriously consider this down the road !! grin

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You better be afraid of a ghost!!

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So far your biggest problem is this:

45-120

Last edited by Sharpsman; 02/09/16.

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I liked my 45-120, it was a shootin sombitch, too bad some sack washing sacrilege homeo was shooting light loads of smokeless in it and rung the chamber! mad


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Originally Posted by m1919

[Linked Image]

Any idea how the recoil from these loads will compare to full test 500 grain loads in a 458 WM?





Lovely rifle smile

I have a couple big bore Ruger #1's, including a .458, which I've benched with 500gr loads running about 2000 fps. It's about 9 lbs as it is. Recoil is worse than my .45-90 Sharps, which is a little over 10 lbs. I have the shotgun buttplate, like your rifle. Like ET said, the modern gun is harder and faster.


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Well, since you all were good enough to provide some free advice, I figure I can say thanks by providing you with some comic relief....with pics from my first BP experience!

Target was set at 100 yds.

After firing my first three shots with the 105 gr loads that landed near the top edge of the target, I made a slight adjustment to the sight and fired seven more. All landed in the black.....not impressed, but I was not overly disappointed either.



[Linked Image]

New target and on to the 110 gr loads.

This is where it goes to heck...

[Linked Image]

First shot was just off the X, second shot was at 12 O'clock, third shot was lower but in the black. The next five shots were all way low and all over the map!!!
I was still having fun, but the good feeling was fading.

I then remembered reading about guys running a dry patch through every few shots.

A few dry patches later, back to the 105s, and I put three high at the 11 O'clock. I was surprised that a couple swipes of a patch not only gave me a reasonable three shot group, but the point of impact from the previous several shots went up approx. 8"

[Linked Image]

Fired a few more that again went 6"-8" low and several inches left and right of center and decided to call it a night.

Fired a total of 28 before it got too dark to see.

Looks like I have a bit to learn here.








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Thanks fellas for the compliments on the rifle. Despite my less than stellar session at the range, I am looking forward to the next time I can get out and try it again.

I will say this regarding the recoil. I was pleasantly surprised. My #1 in 458 kicks much harder from the bench than this one does. I'm not sure I would want to do 28 rounds with the #1. I left today not feeling any real discomfort.

It was exactly like Twin said....more of a push. Completely agree tex, the 458 IS harder and faster!


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C. Sharps builds a really FINE rifle, and yours is trying to do it's job, in spite of a GLARING omission.

That last three shot group shows TREMENDOUS promise, but how does one, "advise" when faced with a complete lack of little individual details that make up the WHOLE, if you're going to discuss "Group Size", and in terms of the fundamentals of running a BPCR ?

Lets just all forget about this silly recoil shibolith, move on, and address FOULING MANAGEMENT..... wink

Quote
I then remembered reading about guys running a dry patch through every few shots.
blush blush blush

Missing,.....

*No details re: Ambient temps
*No details re: Wind
*No details re: position Sticks , prone / sitting
*No details re: position Bench, what rest, and WHERE
*No details Re: Bullet Lubricant
*No details re: Patches / Patch Material (other than dry)
*No details re: Wet patching, and with what potion
*No details re: Jag Sizing
*No details Re: Fouling pushed out between shots / groups
*No detail Re: final clean up
*No detail re: Blowtube ?

Provided with these details, there are likely a host of little adjustments to advise / comment on.

Congrats on your first time out, and will be looking for some more great targets again soon !

GTC







Last edited by crossfireoops; 02/09/16.

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Hope you took no offense with the train car loads of black as several of us here shoot and enjoy our 110's with your identical loads.BTW I forgot to add that rifle sure is a thing of beauty! wink

I'm not one to give advice as I've only been in the BPCR bizz a few years myself and certainly can't fill the big shoes that reside here but one thing to keep in mind, a quote from buddy ET " don't try to reinvent the wheel."

There's no special magic or voodoo that makes this old technology tick just sound repetitious loading technique with proper fouling management as Crossfire points out.

I send alot of rounds downrange every year so the other piece of advice if I may..shoot a ton if you can as the old saying "Practice makes perfect" is most applicable to ones success.... ENJOY keep us posted on your journey!!!


You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






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We were having some of the classic ".45-120 accuracy Blues" here some years back with an original Farmingdale LRE.

The simple addition of:

A.) ceramic media case cleaning
B.) NO neck sizing,...push fit / thumb seat

to the program sees that rifle now among the more accurate in this area.

More case length = more column drag = higher ES

GTC

Last edited by crossfireoops; 02/09/16.

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No offense taken Woody. I'm here to shoot, learn, and have fun.

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Originally Posted by m1919
No offense taken Woody. I'm here to shoot, learn, and have fun.


grin Velcomm to der Darkside!! grin The REAL bug hits ya when you start to learn and use paper patched slug, then you will likely wish you had taken a shot of heroin instead. Less habit forming and cheaper! grin grin


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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Originally Posted by m1919
No offense taken Woody. I'm here to shoot, learn, and have fun.


grin Velcomm to der Darkside!! grin The REAL bug hits ya when you start to learn and use paper patched slug. Less habit forming and cheaper! grin grin


A big PP flying brick on top of his 120 would be most impressive! grin


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Crossfire - some additional details:

Rifle - Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express, 34" barrel

Loads:

RCBS 45 Basic brass @3.255"
CCI LR Magnum primers
Brass tumbled in SS pins with Dawn dish soap and water
Full length sized in RCBS dies
Flash holes deburred and primer pockets uniformed
All powder charges weighed to nominal +0/ -0.5gr. Dropped through 3/8" dia 24" long drop tube and compressed with compression plug under a 0.060" veggie wad to kiss the base of the bullet.
Bullets were 545gr 0.458" dia SPG lubed 20-1 alloy

Shooting conditions:

Ambient temperature was ~65f, humidity ~70%
Shot from a solid bench, sandbags front and rear, barrel resting on bags just ahead of the forend
Dry cotton patch's were run through on a loop...my jag was not available at the time. Yea, it came out pretty dirty the first few two patches. The third and final patch was only lightly soiled. The second cleaning a few rounds later did not produce quite as dirty a patch.
My "blow tube" was an oversized straw. I blew one full breath through immetietly after each shot.

Final clean up of brass was with hot soapy water in a milk jug....with agitation and several cold water rinses.

Rifle was cleaned at the end of the day with hot soapy water, a loop and a jag, untill no more residue then the bore was coated with CVA Slick Treatment.

Can you elaborate on the use of ceramic media? I have used walnut shells and pins for metallic cartridges, but never ceramic (at least not for reloading).




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i'm new to BPCR so i have nothing to say to help you at all but......that is an insanely good looking rifle you have.


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Gonna' be working late in the shop,....just playing catch up on a beer break.

Thought that was a C.Sharps,....based on the case colors,...a beaut, regardless, I love em' all ( other than the "Dark Valley Dagos")

Will be back, and elaborate ,....or maybe dig up some old writings on ceramic media,....

For the non,....suffice it to say that I don't CARE what the exterior of my cases look like,...as long as I can see a mirror polish INSIDE of em, and the exterior will feed and extract smoothly,...

If your cases have not been ANNEALED, ...QUIT TRIMMING !

ANNEAL, FIREFORM, and THAN check your case lengths.
...than maybe think about parking the dies,...let your SHOOTING do the sizing, and load "Old School"....whether Greasers or Slicks,....an awful lot of good shooting is going on with brass that NEVER sees anything but a powder compression die.

Later,

GTC


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That is a beautiful rifle!

I'm also a newbie when it comes to BPCR, all the fault of Jim (EvilTwin) who first whispered the siren song on these pages, then Greg (Crossfireoops) who led me the rest of the way down the Dark Path by letting me shoot his competition Sharps.

Instantly addicted, I wound up with a Shiloh Hartford Model of my own.

Having been a handloader for over 40 years, I, too, started loading for this rifle using the same tools and techniques I had been using for smokeless powder cartridges. I'm here to tell you that BPCR is another, completely different, critter.

For years I wondered why all the knowledge and skills of the "Old Dead Guys" wasn't being realized and the amazing feats of accuracy could not be replicated. Then I discovered the truth, it can't be done using the techniques we use for smokeless. Voila! (French for "lookit this sheit!") Do it the way the ODG's did it and impress yourself and everyone around you. grin

There are folks here on this forum, too modest to boast, who will also help with a nudge here, a comment there, an tip, or just tell you flat out you're doing it wrong.

Listen carefully to these guys, they know of what they speak. I could not be anywhere near where I am now without their assistance.

Best wishes on your journey. As E.T. says, "You're doomed!" grin

Ed


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Thanks Ed.

I have to confess, a leetle grin did appear on my mug with each lift of the hammer and squeeze of the set trigger.....all in anticipation of the next poof.

The brass is now cleaned (inside and out) deprimed, and ready for more. I'm certainly ready to listen to Greg, Jim, and others'advice....cept for the heroin part...think I'll stick to BP..

This next round will not get resized. I have not trimmed the brass....nor will I.

Only have ten boolits left.....more need to be ordered.

The PP thing may come in the future....but I need to start at the start.

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Next time out, use a 2 1/2 in flannel patch dampened with a solution of 7 parts water to 1 part Napa water soluble cutting oil. Push that patch thru the bore on a jag or a brush, wipe the chamber dry with a 410 bore mop.
If you're going to try and blowtube, you need to get a piece of half inch vinyl tubing. Be well hydrated and blow at least 4 deep slow breaths from way down deep in you lungs, if you don't see moisture in the tube, you're not hydrated enough.
If shooting off a bench get the rests up high enough that you are sitting nearly erect. Watch your grip on the wrist and be sure to rest the rifle in the same place every time.
Lastly you might want to find a forum populated with folks that are serious about shooting bpcr, and do some serious reading.


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Thank you for the pointers Ranch.

I have some tubing per your reccomendation and I'll make up a solution.

What is your suggestion on the number of rounds between each cleaning cycle? Any forums you reccomended I follow besides this one?

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ADDED advisory,...re: Blow Tube,...

Per Ranch :
* Maintain CRITICAL hour to hour ( or in the Summer 15 minute to 15 minute hydration HYDRATION levels) so you're exhaling very moist air.

Per Crossfire:

* Think about the process for a moment,...and ask yourself whether your trying to humidify the entire firing line,...or just establish a very damp cell of confined humid air, that being the interior of a long .45 cal. barrel. Forget "Blowing",....it's just going to disrupt your pulse rate.
*BREATHE instead, slow normal breaths....intake through nose, exhale through yer' yawp into your blow tube.
*Do NOT maintain conversation with your spotter or spectators,...you'll lose track and inhale through the tube, after making a decent shot,...and completely screw up the potential for a follow up repeat performance.

I've shot 60 rounds of heavy .45 caliber BP ammo (550 gr Greasers / 100 gr Goex) in cooler weather, ...my powder and bullet lube combination a good one and well matched, and not cleaned my barrel once.

Hotter weather's a different ball of wax entirely,...the BT goes into the box, and one leans towards DAMP patching after EVERY shot. I use a solution of 90% Isopropyl Alky,and Murphy's Oil Soap on an Arsenal patch. There's a vid of me cursing a too tight flex rod on here somewhere, I'd forgotten my loose fitting one,...

Now , a question for you, Sir.

Did you know anything about history and etiology of the caliber you were buying, when you first set out to get behind a Sharps ?
I'm looking across the room at a large box of Norma 45-120 as I type grin , and harkening back to my first BPCR,....same chambering.
That rifle taught me a LOT.

GTC

Last edited by crossfireoops; 02/11/16.

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Ya need to keep something in mind here and that is that Ranch and Cross shoot competition. Me,FlyboyFlem and Ed too-many-letters just like to shoot and hunt. The old dead guys managed to do some great long range shooting and kill a schidtload of buffler and other critters without magic wands. Keep that in mind. The big 45's are pure killing machines. some of the bestest that ever hit the bricks.


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Those ODG's kids knew enough to keep fouling under control even while hunting. That's why places like Homer Fishers sold take down cleaning rods, and "pull thru" cleaners.
44's rule, 45 drool...


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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Ya need to keep something in mind here and that is that Ranch and Cross shoot competition. Me,FlyboyFlem and Ed too-many-letters just like to shoot and hunt. The old dead guys managed to do some great long range shooting and kill a schidtload of buffler and other critters without magic wands. Keep that in mind. The big 45's are pure killing machines. some of the bestest that ever hit the bricks.



You need to keep in you recoil obsessive and addled mind that I LIVED on wild meat for years, North of the Medicine Line, for MANY years, and was letting air into moose, elk and deer with my .43 Mauser, and my re-barreled (Hoke) original Ballard Pacific in 45-120 in the 1970s and 1980s.

The OP is asking about ACCURACY, and a path thereto is being provided for him, Jim.

GTC

Last edited by crossfireoops; 02/11/16.

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You asked how many shots before cleaning. Note that there is a difference between cleaning, and wiping for fouling control between shots. Both involve pushing damp patches through the bore, but cleaning is just that, removing all fouling from the bore. Wiping for fouling control is not for removing fouling, although some is pushed out in the process, but for introducing moisture to keep the fouling moist and as uniform as possible. Major differences are a looser fitting patch/jag combo for wiping, and fewer passes.

I am also a competitor, not a hunter these days. I have no experience with loads that lend themselves to repeated shots without blow tubing or wiping. Mine are too tight or close fitted for that.

I know nothing about managing a .45-120. It would be about my last choice if advising on a first BPCR, but you have taken on the challenge and I wish you well.

Paul


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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Ya need to keep something in mind here and that is that Ranch and Cross shoot competition. Me,FlyboyFlem and Ed too-many-letters just like to shoot and hunt. The old dead guys managed to do some great long range shooting and kill a schidtload of buffler and other critters without magic wands. Keep that in mind. The big 45's are pure killing machines. some of the bestest that ever hit the bricks.


Yup this competition match ended up Antelope ) me 1,, I won again..
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Are all those empty loops about how many shots it took before getting a hit ?

bwa-ha

GTC


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Knowing Don, I seriously doubt it.

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Crossfire

When I set out to buy this gun I knew a little about the history of the cartridge....but not much.....

My reading led me to understand that:

1. It was developed somewhere between 1878-1879
2. It was not of much use on the buffalo herds as they were all but gone by then
3. The question of who chambered it first stirs up some controversy
4. It can be a challenge to load and shoot accurately

Like i said, not much.

So why did I go this route? Simple. I became fascinated by the rifle ever since I saw my first one at a young age. This one came up for sale at a time when I had the funds to buy it.


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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Are all those empty loops about how many shots it took before getting a hit ?

bwa-ha

GTC


eek Full cartridge belts look really cool when all you're doing is standing around playing circle jerk with your cool guys at the "club", but when you're out there walking the hills carrying a 12b rifle,,, a full belt gets a wee bit heavy, so instead of carrying a lifetime supply, a 10-15 year supply is much easier on the ol bod.. cool


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Originally Posted by m1919
Crossfire

When I set out to buy this gun I knew a little about the history of the cartridge....but not much.....

My reading led me to understand that:

1. It was developed somewhere between 1878-1879
2. It was not of much use on the buffalo herds as they were all but gone by then
3. The question of who chambered it first stirs up some controversy
4. It can be a challenge to load and shoot accurately

Like i said, not much.

So why did I go this route? Simple. I became fascinated by the rifle ever since I saw my first one at a young age. This one came up for sale at a time when I had the funds to buy it.



That 3 1/4 case actually came about probably in 1880 or maybe just a touch later. There are a very few rifles out there that were factory chambered for it, but they are extremely scarce.
The thing came about when the big heavy single shot rifles were rapidly becoming obsolete, even Sharps was marketing a bolt action rifle when the closed shop.
But with all that said we have them to deal with today. Looks as tho you're off to a decent start, but fouling control is something that has always been practiced, but something very few of the internet experts today share much info about when some one new comes along asking how to make Ol smoke pole work....
When running over 100 grs of powder I seriously doubt maintaining accuracy without wiping is going to happen. Take another page out of history,, and even the mighty 2 7/8 case was factory loaded with 90 grs of powder for sporting purposes, they knew that shooting more than that without wiping was a disaster waiting to happen. That's also a lot of the rational behind Freunds conversions on the 74 model Sharps.
Next time out be mindful of diligent fouling control and you'll likely see groups tighten and stay that way.


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Since I know nothing grin I'll just pass along this info..When I began this journey I knew diddly squat about drop tubes or blow tubes but several here and you know who you are spent the time to adjust and re-calibrate my brain to the Dark Side SOP's... I'll always be grateful for that.

Really only had one thing going for me which was and I'm being vain here, a pretty darn good bullet caster with 50 years of experience.This was a great asset saving time and money in the long run.

Where am I today? Well started out shooting a 12" gong at 100yds,then replaced it with the 8" variety and now happily swinging a 6" with either the Sharps or '86 Win lever gun and presently making a 4" for this year...So have I changed loading techniques?..NO..Powders?..NO..bullets? YES.. and in many configurations.

My success has been getting familiar with both rifles and launching enough big lead to change the rotation of the earth a degree or two.. THIS has been MY game changer not allowing myself to become too overly anal about loading technique.

Kudos however to you guys who shoot and have shot competition just isn't an interest of mine and never will.

The new little guy to hopefully slap around.. smile

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Not quite sure how this went from helping some one figure out how to get some accuracy from his 45-120, to some being all butt hurt about target shooting v hunting...
Accuracy and hunting should go together.


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Wanted to say thanks again for all the tips and suggestions. Not sure when I will be able to get out again, but I am looking forward to applying my newly acquired knowledge from the kind folks here.

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I'm fairly new to it myself. I have been working with a couple of .45-90's - one a High Wall carbine, the other a Shiloh #1. Compared to smokeless powder reloading there is an even greater # of variables to manage.

I've tried several recipes and techniques in the Shiloh. Last time out it put three in 2" at 200 yards. I suspect it might do even better with a bit more practice & fine tuning.


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some being all butt hurt about target shooting v hunting...


Really,....WTF, Over ?

Is this BPCR forum breaking down into goddam FACTIONS, or something ?

"Hunters" v. "Target Shooters?"

Quote
Accuracy and hunting should go together.


Amen,....if you can't hit it, it doesn't MATTER how hard it's kicking you, does it ?

Just kidding about the empty loops, hope the Momma Cow herd move went well, and that calving will be a never sweat and prosperous.

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Cow movie was a snap, opened the gates followed them home, they were thru the calving pasture and into the upper corrals before I got the gates closed....


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I'd say that's a good omen, and bodes well.

....gotta' love older, well fed stock.

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They was all bunched up about 1/4 mile south of the gate when we got there, left the gate open ran thru and counted them, shut the solar pump off and away they went. Never left the trail , got to the road crossed it went thru the gate, and we were still 1/2 mile behind them...
Got to love them home raised 1 iron gals.


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3. The question of who chambered it first stirs up some controversy


Not really,...The BRITS did,....called it the .450 x 3 1/4 Express or some such.
SAME case, lighter bullets, lazier (and sane) twist rates, single and double guns, some VERY high end "Majarajah Class".
...popular in India and Africa for a BRIEF while,...and a source of grief when Cordite and White Powder rounds in the same dimensional spec. came along.

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Got any azzkicker 32-40 loads?


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Originally Posted by Ranch13
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Are all those empty loops about how many shots it took before getting a hit ?

bwa-ha

GTC


eek Full cartridge belts look really cool when all you're doing is standing around playing circle jerk with your cool guys at the "club", but when you're out there walking the hills carrying a 12b rifle,,, a full belt gets a wee bit heavy, so instead of carrying a lifetime supply, a 10-15 year supply is much easier on the ol bod.. cool


Some years ago I found a waist holster with all the loops stuffed perfectly acceptable for a RSB. Some time passed and the rig started pulling my pants down, that being awkward to say the least. I notice most times in movies they have loops filled when the belts are hanging on shoulders rather than waists larger than hips. Beer and extra tacos will do that to a fella.

I don't sport around much with belt looped ammo these days. But if I did it would be hangin' on a shoulder.


I am..........disturbed.

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Originally Posted by Ranch13
Got any azzkicker 32-40 loads?


Nope,...puzzy "Target Shooters" like me stick to the smaller stuff.

My 25-20 has given me a terrible flinch.

GTC


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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Originally Posted by Ranch13
Got any azzkicker 32-40 loads?
Nope,...puzzy "Target Shooters" like me stick to the smaller stuff.My 25-20 has given me a terrible flinch.GTC


You made me choke on my coffee! laugh

Lemme see, 8 Bore, 220gr Fg, 2+ oz lead slug... IIRC, when you touched off the first of those loads, it lifted your left foot off of the ground and the muzzle of that Settler's Gun was at ~40 degrees elevation. Somewhere around here I have a pic of you firing that "puzzy load". shocked laugh

Ed

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That's the shot that finished me off,....kinda' like Baker's 4 bore screwed up his equilibrium.

Hones,...these days I confine myself to gallery loads and 22 CB shorts.

Even "Velocitors" and "Stingers" start bothering me,....I start weeping and drooling, and have developed an interesting nervous tic.

Honest, this is the worst flinch imaginable....the only thing that seems to help is judicious quantities of Quality Adult beverages.

GTC



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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
....the only thing that seems to help is judicious copious quantities of Quality Adult beverages. GTC


Fixed it. laugh

Ed


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Not at this time, Ed,....judicious IS the operative word,...there's just to damned MUCH going on to even consider "partying".
Will be unloading this "new /old" tool grinder in the PM , Mañana,...and will post some pics.
The HEART , and very SOUL of quality mold making, Barrel drilling, reaming, rifling STARTS with having the capacity to hold some pretty close tolerances. Hell, it's the foundation for just about ANY custom shop , working in hard metals, making ANYTHING.
"Abrasive Machining" has been around for ,....oh, a coupla' three millenia.
It's not "Rocket Science"
.....that don't mean you'll find foot driven stones, or water powered overhead line shafts powering up the lathes and mills at Shilo's plant, or any other contemporary shop that plays in the vintage / historic arms arena.
The recent "Original Sharps barrel re-birth" stunt has been a tremendous motivator, and was timed just right on the heels of getting that lumberjack's rolling block rifle into its' family's hands.
Shopping a second (bigger) lathe, as I peck.
Drinkin' any more than proper analgesic requirements, and
frost preventative methodologies dictate would not be wise, at this time.
Crap,...over-indulgence might see one again running something big enough to spin out ML artillery barrels.
BTW,....that Mountain Howitzer is STILL for sale,...at the RIGHT price.....to the RIGHT team, or person.

GTC


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Just yankin' yer chain, compadre. grin

No one can pull off the metallurgical marvels that you do with copious quantities of any adult beverage on board.

I can't wait to see the next installment of the Sharps job. I'm also very glad you are back in your groove. wink

Speaking of spinning another tube, how big a lathe are you looking for?
I've recently seen a monster (to me) lathe (8' bed?) sitting in a local welding shop that hasn't seen hard work in a long time.
I couldn't get close enough to get the make/model. I do know the owner and he takes pride in taking care of his tools. He inherited the shop from his Dad. His Dad had built the shop after getting out of the military, planning on being an oilfield machine shop with some minor welding jobs.
The area had different ideas and they became a welding shop with an occasional machine job.

Ed



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Ed a 16 X 96 would be leaning into the "largest" realm,...
Any larger swing should really call out a longer distance between center / bed length.
I LOVED that old 20 X 80 Summit I had at the old (big) shop,....even if it did work a man half to death,....but if I ever get into that size machine again,....I'll damn sure want it LONGER.

That said, an ACTIVE search is in progress, so anything that you can send regarding likely candidates most appreciated.

Not just Smoke wagons,....this "Cochise Pump" project looks like a good play, and COULD be a fine line of small production work.

GTC


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Enjoying this thread, Crossfire, heard you mention the Farmingdale 120 Yup I had an early Wolf gun, 120, it shot ok but I had to clean the barrel after every shot! was a 16lb rifle if I rember right! I got the rifle for $900.00 at the time , late 80s, gun looked great, and was a big ass Sharps, I tried everything I could read at the time I knew No one that shot Blacck powder Cart. then. Read The Dukes stuff in shooting time Mag. No CPs then or internet! I couldnt champer another round , without a full cleaning! I read down the road that the chambers were Very tight! after a summer of messing with it I sold it at a gun show for 900.00 and never looked back! my next one was a C Sharps in 45-70 worked fine! Congrads to the guy with the New 120 sounds like your doing fine and the Net has alot of help you just have to ask!


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Follow up....

Got out to the range recently and applied some of the know-how gleamed from you folks.

Namely:

1. Did not size or trim brass
2. Applied just enough crimp to hold the bullet in place
3. Ran a cotton patch through every three shots
4. Positioned myself more upright on the shooting bench


Loads were as before with 105 gr GOEX, 545 gr boolits, and CCI mag primers with a 0.060" veggie wad

This is ten rounds at 100...~5" CTC Still nothing to write home about, but a significant improvement over the first time out.

More bullets recently arrived in the mail and once I can load them and get out, I will continue the R&D. Looking forward to some more experimentation with the blow tube and additional fouling management.

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Run a damp patch on a jag or brush thru the bore after every shot and you'll see more improvement.


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Thanks Ranch, I'll give that a try.

Question: Should I run just one wet patch per shot or multiple? Leave the bore wet or push a dry cloth through on a jag or brush?

Earlier you suggested using a mix of water and cutting oil on a jag and then drying the bore with a 410 mop. What is the science behind adding the oil?

I did order some mops so as to give that a try as well.

Thanks again for the pointers.

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If the patches are just barely damp, no dry patch would be needed.
The number of patches will largely depend on ambient temperature and humidity. 2 should be sufficient for most conditions.
Bore condition consistency is what you're after.


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How you treat your bore depends on several factors, one of which is the ambient temp and humidity. Barrel length is another. Shooting here in a hot dry desert climate presents a real challenge, and wiping is the order of the day. Blowing through a tube just doesn't introduce enough moisture.

There is no true "science" behind it. My sense of the value of a bit of soluble oil is that it keeps the bore moist and the fouling soft. Especially with a hot barrel, plain water evaporates almost immediately. Accuracy, preventing leading, and possibly chambering ease are the goals.

If you are pushing dry flakes out the muzzle, you need more moisture. Also, watch the lube star at the muzzle. Soft and greasy is good, hard and black not.

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A bit late in the game here, but I find it humorous that Kirk at Shiloh will encourage owning and shooting howitzers like that 45-120, but when it comes to BPCR, he mostly shoots a 40-65.

It seems as though some rifles is meant for shooting, while others is meant for selling...


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smile

Undoubtedly, he hasn't forgotten the huge shot in the arm Quigley Down Under gave them. Remember the five year wait?

Harvard Business School, pay heed.

Paul


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Quote
2. Applied just enough crimp to hold the bullet in place


Man that brass just COSTS to much to be crimping it conventionally with each reloading cycle !
If the bullets you're loading, bases wiped clean of any trace of bullet lube are rattling around in fireformed case mouths, you either need larger dia slugs, or a stiffer gummier bullet lube.

You ARE aware that BPCR ammo requires "nose up" storage and transport, particularly in warmer weather ?

If you feel you just HAVE to crimp, get aholt of a Lyman long taper die.

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Originally Posted by shrapnel



A bit late in the game here, but I find it humorous that Kirk at Shiloh will encourage owning and shooting howitzers like that 45-120, but when it comes to BPCR, he mostly shoots a 40-65.

It seems as though some rifles is meant for shooting, while others is meant for selling...


Yup, Garbe knew that too, and the .38 calibers carved some serious inroads in capable hands here for a while. The odd "turned pig" or "rung Ram" seemed worthwhile, in view of being to get up off your final relay with your wits intact.

GTC

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Originally Posted by Paul39
smile Remember the five year wait?

I got my first one in less than 5 years . . . 4 yrs, 10 mo and 20 days wink . Worth every day of wait time.

Now to the topic at the top of the thread - Only advice I will give (most other advice so far is spot on) is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE !!! Order 50 pounds of BP of your choice and while waiting for it to arrive, cast as many bullets of your choice to last you a long time. Then, load whatever empties you have, shoot them, repeat over and over again. The first 3 months I had my first BPCR, I went through 15 pounds of powder, 1500 primers and about 100 pounds of lead. Not that I'm a really good shooter, but boy, did I have fun - that was almost 19 years ago.

HAVE FUN !!!


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Just gave this another quick scan...

Quote
Loads were as before with 105 gr GOEX, 545 gr boolits, Loads were as before with 105 gr GOEX, 545 gr boolits, and CCI mag primers with a 0.060" veggie wad with a 0.060" veggie wad


You do NOT need a Mag Primer,... Would recommend a standard large rifle MATCH instead.At this point you probably won't see any improvement,. but BP likes a SOFT, and relatively COOL primer.

In the interim, and again looking again at cartridge case value / cost, those Mag primers just EAT flash holes,....all of which at this time should be of VERY uniform wire guage drill size (smaller the better, don't drill out all your cases for the sake of a few oversized,...mark THOSE, and use em' for foulers.


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I made it out to the range again and applied some of the inputs received here.

Namely:

1. I used a Lyman long crimp die to hold the 545gr boolit in place
2. I ran a 410 bore mop down the tube after each shot
3. I uniformed each piece of brass....length was pretty close on all, but a light touch with the RCBS case trimmer got everything exactly the same

I shot 11 with 110 gr, which did the best and had my brother's shoot some with the 105, which did not fare as well.

This was my target with 11 rounds of the 110 gr load.....didn't keep the other targets

[Linked Image]

First shot was the one on the left in the black. The remaining 10 shots are in the white.

This is an improvement over the previous two sessions so I am encouraged.

Thanks again for your collective advice. I'm looking forward to the next round of experimentation.







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Looks like you're getting the hang of it! Good shooting!

Ed


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Smiling here,...BROADLY.

GTC


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Good job.


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So how did it go from shooting so well to having a ring in the chamber?

Originally Posted by gunner500
I liked my 45-120, it was a shootin sombitch, too bad some sack washing sacrilege homeo was shooting light loads of smokeless in it and rung the chamber! mad

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Well it's been a while since I've been out with the rifle but I did manage one session with reasonable results.

I thought I would provide a quick update for any who were interrested.

Again at 100 yards, 110 gr of GOEX, and the same 545 gr BACO boolits. The major difference was I used a sight in target.....which I think was a mistake as it was tougher for me to focus in on.

I only managed two three shot groups, but here they are.

[Linked Image]

Question I have for you Gentleman is what kind of 100 yard groups can one expect from an open sight BPCR rifle such as this?

I have to confess I am use to trying for that magical 5 shot 0.300" (or less) group from my metallic cartridge rifles.

Thanks




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the vertical in your groups indicate either the fouling control isn't working , or you're not positioning the rifle properly in the rest, or not giving a consistent grip with the gun hand.
At 100 yes with decent sights and a proper load there's no reason to accept much less than a clover leaf.


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Much obliged Ranch. Thanks for the pointers. I'll continue to experiment with fouling control and shooting technique.


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Ranch is spot on. Fouling control and resting the rifle. I'm not a competitive BPCR shooter but I've owned and shot most of the big bore sharps calibers. One thing is certain....when you have the right load combination fouling is not an issue and long strings of shots can be fired without doing anything else but using a blow tube. Cleanup should be nothing more than a couple (2) wet patches, a couple dry ones, then a lightlyl oiled patch for storage. Done....Match grade accuracy can be achieved using black powder. The chronograph readings are amazing when everything comes together. The estimated velocity spreads are in the single digits. My favorite caliber is the 45-110 with a 30 to 32" barrel max. I've never achieved continuous match grade accuracy with a 34" barrel. The big bores all tended to foul out after a few shots with the 34 inch barrels. Those longer barrels need more lube bearing bullets. If this was my rifle and I was looking for tack driving target accuracy I would try 30-1 lead alloy bullets, Swiss 1F powder with little to no compression, enough crimp to get rid of the flared case mouth only, and REM 9 1/2 primers. I would also anneal the case mouths. If fouling was still an issue I'd get a different bullet which held more SPG lube.......nice looking rifle BTW........my .02 opinion for what it's worth. Nothing more satisfying than finally getting ones rifle to shoot.

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