Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Bad Idea part two. Anatomic measurements of a winter kill.

Well I followed my carrion smelling heeler today. The dogs been knawing on a frozen adult cow elk. She is frozen solid to the ground. I got photos. Gonna get measurements. If some one could email me at jwcowdoc@gmail.com we could post the photos. It is as close to perfect a specimen as I could hope for. Thanks your pal Anus.

Angus, ya might wanna add the "G" back in there........

Nope I ain't cam. Gonna own it. Keep pounding.

I look forward to seeing this. Take photos with a tape measure visible! Great find Angus.

I have no photo bucket access. Can some one post them? I can email them. At jwcowdocgmail.com.

Just emailed you

Sent some photos. The elk is frozen to the ground so I can get more. I took some measurements will list them after photos post. Thanks. John

Hmmm...they haven't come through yet. My email is working, as I have emailed a couple people back and forth today. Did you get a bounce back message?

Yep it failed. Can you email me?

ya, hang on

Re sent. My freaking spell check is outta control.

Got them..stand by.

Spell check has caused me considerable pain. I should figure out how to turn it off.

Here ya go....

And the rest

Thanks for posting photos. It is of a frozen cow lie in sternal. Left side of animal. The skeleton from first rib to end of pelvis is 53 inches. The ribs I count 13 of em is 29 inches. At rib seven is the start of the rumen ingesta. This ball of frozen rumen contents is 12 inches wide and 17 inches long. I believe a live animal would be larger. It lays along the left rib cage starting at rib seven going back towards the tail. The metal ring in the photos is seven inches in diameter. The spinous process of the spine are 8 inches before the scapula and 5 inches behind it. The depth of the lung field is a maximum of 16 inches. This deepest part is where the scapula us positioned. It is my belief a elk lying down will have the scapula shifted foreword. The area behind a standing animal where there is lung are would be slightly less than the 8 inches shown in the photo. As you can see neck of the scapula is about dead center of the lung field. With 9 inches in front and 9 inches behind.

The pic with the tape shows the spine of the scapula ...something to avoid when bow hunting as it is almost 2 inches deep.

If any wants different photos or measurements or questions let me know. It is still there frozen.

Whats it weigh?

Time to bring this back to the top.

Angus and I have collaborated in getting some photo information together. He made some measurements on the dead cow elk that his carrion dog found. See Photo 1. I came up with some photos to show cows, bulls, anatomy, and angles. Extrapolating a bit from the physical measurements he made I came up with the depths from hump to brisket on adult cows and bulls.


Photo 1

Those depths are approximately 30 inches for a bull and 24 inches for a cow in this photo. See Photo 2. The red arrow shows the top to bottom depth we measured then calculated using photo scaling. The yellow circles I’ll explain next.


Photo 2

OK, now I am putting on my Nomex fire gear. Angus said I can expect flames. Please note, I am giving information here, not instructing you where you must shoot.

Because this discussion started with the question about a “shoulder shot”; the question was “Is it bad idea to try to break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders?”, the ensuing discussion showed that there were a lot of different interpretations of what a shoulder shot is, or even what a shoulder is.

However the question posed said “break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders” so this was what Angus and I looked at from an anatomical view. He tried to measure within the ribcage of that partially consumed cow where the lungs were, where the rumen started in relationship to the leg bones, and took photos with a metal ring 7 inches in diameter. The leg bones were displaced somewhat by the scavengers, so the position is not quite correct. The shoulder blade was pulled downward as was the humerus, and that displaced the scapula-humerus joint downward, leaving it too low on the ribcage.

I took that to the photos of live elk standing up. Photo 2 above has yellow circles placed over the approximate joint between the scapula (shoulder blade) and humerus (upper leg bone). On one cow elk in the foreground there is a yellow arrow pointing to the location of that joint.


Photo 3

Photo 3 shows the right leg scapula and humerus of a mature bull elk. Note the 2.5 inch long .338 shell on the ball end of the humerus for scale. I will mention that on the upper end of the scapula, in life, there is a half-moon shaped piece of hard cartilage that adds length to that bone and supports additional musculature, adding to the appearance of the hump over the shoulders. While the shoulder blade is not as much as a half inch thick anywhere except at the head that articulates with the humerus, the ball of the humerus is massive. The top surface of the ball is an oval that measures 4.5 inches long by 3.5 inches wide, and it is solid bone.

That joint is nearly centered (vertically) over the lungs according to Angus’ measurements. So if you can get totally through that ball and into the chest cavity, you do have a solid lung hit. But your bullet needs sufficient mass and energy to smash through and have effect inside the thorax.

If your intention is to stop a bull you will likely need to smash both joints - onside and offside - with your shot. If you can do that, then your elk is probably both anchored and quickly dead. That particular hit, however, does make a mess of the shoulder meat with bloodshot, bone fragments, and torn muscle. It does not help meat quality. If you only break the scapula higher up, or even only break one foreleg without your bullet entering the chest cavity to reach the lungs, it will not prevent the elk from departing. If you failed to penetrate the lungs with that shot, then you may have a lost elk.


Photo 4

On the other hand, on Photo 4 there are red circles that are scaled to be about the same size as the metal ring Angus used. On the broadside cows, the center of those circles indicates a location that just misses the humerus bone, and depending on exact placement may entirely miss the usable meat on the shoulder. It provides a double lung hit, and may sever the aorta where it comes out the top of the heart. A little low is a heart shot. A little high is still a solid lung hit. (See photos 6-9 in next post - size limit?)

On the quartering animals, the shot on the bull may break the onside shoulder or it may just slip in ahead of the bone, doing little meat damage. It should miss the offside joint and humerus. On the forward quartering cow, the center of the red circle should slide in just in front of the bone on the right shoulder and depart the chest behind the left upper leg bone, with a double lung hit. The margin for error to get 2 good lung hits on that particular animal might be a bit slim.

That cow in the center is just problematic. She is quartering and that is compounded by the fact that her body is also curved to the right. Aim further back than the yellow circle, you clip the rumen, any further forward you get a marginal one lung hit, even inside the circle it is not a great hit. Best answer is to wait for a better angle. (For the sake of the discussion we are obviously ignoring animals behind these examples.)


Photo 5

Photo 5 gives you something to dream about. Nice clean broadside shot at a couple of bulls. Keep in mind my software for this is not perfect for placing circles.

Photos 6-9:



Photo 6 – Musculature is a pretty reasonable depiction of the shoulder muscles wrapping around the scapula and humerus.



Photo 7 – Skeletal, on this drawing we think the leg bones (scapula and humerus) are drawn a little forward of their actual position on a live, standing elk.



Photo 8 - On the circulatory system illustration, the circle indicates the area in the center of the lungs and at the top of the heart that the other circles on the drawings show, and also the locations in the broadside animals in the photos.



Photo 9 rounds out the drawings with internal organs. The illustration of the lungs is probably intended to show them inflated with a breath just inhaled.