Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters SCOPE LEVELING QUESTION

You are a whiney little bi otch. All I ever hear out of you is "I can't get this rifle to shoot" You are a fu cking crybaby. No truer words can be said and you know the truth hurts sometimes. Keep shooting, maybe you'll get good some day. Maybe, if you haven't developed too many bad habits already...

These threads explain it all. I don't give a fu ck how much shooting you do. Even if all or most is just shooting off your mouth:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...61794/Finicky_rifles_suck...#Post7861794

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...o_has_had_a_custom_rifle_tha#Post9777314

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...26289/Explain_these_groups..#Post9326289

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7920207/The_7.5lb_dud...#Post7920207

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...y_would_a_rifle_suddenly_hat#Post3323404

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...t_digging_my_280AI_so_far...#Post3301644

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...9340/Signs_of_a_dying_scope?#Post2369340

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...emington_Mtn_rifle_accuracy?#Post1690364

Thank you, no applause necessary...

Bsa1917douche: My standards of a gun that "shoots" are higher than most. Guns that i conclude dont shoot, would have you drooling. Don't be scared to shoot once in awhile, you might actually learn something.

Jeff,

That's exactly why the Reticle-Tru works so well: It cuts out the error possible in using tiny spirit levels (which are are rarely accurate, except by chance) on supposedly level surfaces on the scope and rifle action. Instead it adjusts the reticle to the center of the action, bypassing several other possible errors.

Hi-Vel knows about the possible accuracy of spirit levels, because he worked for years building buildings. He knew tiny levels don't cut it, especially when they're mass-produced in China and combined in a small tool that retails for a few bucks. Instead he designed a precisely-machined (in America) tool that works off the center of the action.

Yes, it involves "eyeballing," but the human eye is capable of considerable accuracy, especially some somebody takes the time to measure the centerline of, say, the butt-plate of a rifle and the rear of the bolt.

It's not "rocket surgery," as some jokers put it. Instead it's an elegantly simple solution to a problem many shooters try to make complex, apparently because they prefer to believe in more complex solutions to relatively simple problems.

Hell, I've just used two string levels and a vertical plum line as insurance, but I can't shoot past 600 yds.

Never seen Hi-Vel's device before opening this thread. Really like the concept.

Yep, Hi_Vel is a great guy...

He sent me the latest Reticle-Tru, one set up for black rifles. I had written an eval. on the original, Delrin version. The bottom pointer won't clear a flat top black rifle, so the latest one has a flat bottom.

The blue tape on the Delrin one helps with gloss finished scopes, the tool slipped too easily, the the blue tape added some friction. I don't find that to be the case with the aluminum version; I had no problem with the Deldrin one and matte finished scopes, just gloss.





I'm not a big AR fan, but do have a couple. This one is a Colt Carbine lower, an Olympic Arms upper. As you can see, the new version works, the original won't. With bolt guns, I like the original with the midline pointer that I can line up with the bolt. With this one, lining up the middle mark does about the same thing. I line up the Picatinny/charge handle with the bottom of the Reticle-Tru, finding true parallel lines is pretty easy.



As you can see, I mount the scope about even with the charge handle. I had the scope eyeballed pretty well. When I applied the Reticle-Tru, I found it to be slightly rotated to the left.

of course assuming those great scenarios wherein the receiver is true, and barrel is true--ie., both running along the same axis, and base mounting holes correctly aligned/bored, scope free from what i call "reticle cant" within the tube, etc.


i view it as an issue that is based upon "Foundation":

aligning the base or bases so that they are oriented with the receiver/barrel centerline (often, two piece bases are off-line with respect to each other--an oft missed gremlin);

setting the rings so that they are aligned with each other, while in addition, aligned parallel with the "centerline" of the barrel;

setting the scope so that the vertical crosswire is aligned with the vertical/central axis of the firearm;

keeping the vertical crosswire vertical in orientation while firing...

square, level, plumb, and true...

coming from a construction background--it's a lot like building a house. you start with square, level footings--straight, square, level, and plumb foundation--and many happy things proceed from that. a mistake in the chain and its an "agony of errors" to try to correct for...

John, an interesting take on Tubbs' set-up of his rigs. i talked with him about some of this about 4 years ago. unfortunately--as Robert R. once said, "most of us folks ain't Tubb", which is why square, level, plumb, and true is best/solid for most all individuals...

while i've messed/tinkered with these things most of my days--there's always something new to learn/discover, which can humble one to near amateur status all over again...

Hi-Vel sent me one of those gizmos...Im gonna hafta get JB to show me how to use it, cause Ive never had much success with it....


But then again, if I can screw in a lightbulb without getting hurt, I'm having a good day....

The original thread started about leveling a scope. If you are leveling the scope, you are assuming the scope is already in line with the bore. With all the posts that have gone astray, I need to bring it back on course and illustrate what is necessary to line that scope up with the bore.

This is the first tool by Hi_Vel when he started designing these scope tools. It allows you to set the rings in line with the bore before you even mount the scope. Once this tool is utilized your scope is now in line with the bore and once this is accomplished, you can go back to leveling your scope...

None of the important things you mention in either constructing a building properly or mounting a scope properly can be done with any degree of repeatable accuracy without accurate tools to measure "level" or "plumb".

Shrapnel, I can see how this would be particularly useful with those old school Sako rings.

RC,
Level and plum would only be a reference point in this instance and only have relative bearing on the task of aligning a bore to the sighting system.

Tom,

The big problem I've seen when people use the Reticle-Tru is getting their eye too close, apparently believing closer is better. Instead, you need to back off, especially with your dominant eye well behind the tool, as close as possible to the center-line of the action/barrel/scope. The slot works better if, like an aperture sight, the vertical reticle is allowed to center itself naturally in the light of the slot--and backing off as much as possible definitely helps there.

Some people apparently can't perceive the center-line of the rear of the bolt very well. Some bolts have an obvious dot in the middle of the cocking piece, but if not ,measuring the center-line and drawing a line on the cocking piece can help.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


This....would be me.



Plus I have had troubles getting too close...but backing up much doesn't seem to work with varilux trifocals


Also, just getting the gizmo straight up and down on my Ruger #1 was completely confounding....



Thank you for answering my plea...but you of all members here know how good my mechanical inclination is....even with the simplest gadgets....

This may help the mentally slow guys that shoot but miss a lot more than they want to...

For the record, the same mental faculties/mechanisms are employed when judging whether the spirit level's bubble is centered between the lines. The Reticle-Tru provides a reference allowing the eye to see the two planes simultaneously and align them. A task humans are generally capable of successfully completing.

Shrap...

Now, that's gotta be some kinda HOT load, the way that bullet jumps and heads skyward just as it leaves the barrel...

DF

It must be a fast twist. . .

While this is true enough, the amount of error is, as I said insignificant unless the amount of cant is gross. The resulting offset from canting the rifle to compensate is small. I'm not going to take the time to do the math but if you mount a scope 1 1/2 inches above the bore, tilt it ten degrees, then cant to compensate, the offset will amount to less than 1/8 inch. Now, if you sight the rifle to be 1/8 inch off in the appropriate direction, it will remain 1/8 inch off all the way out. If you sight the rifle to be centered at 100 yards, the bullet will cross the line of sight at that point and be 1/8 to the opposite side. It will continue to diverge at this same rate (1/8 moa). If you sighted to be centered at 25 yards, you would multiply the divergence by a factor of four so that at 100 yards the error would be 1/2 inch and the shot would continue to diverge at this rate (1/2 moa). I am not good enough to be affected by 1/8 moa of divergence but I figured I could see 1/2 minute. At 300M, I could indeed see significant effect but I was trying to cause it to be visible. I had the scope canted way over and I sighted center at close range to magnify the effect. Once I re-adjusted to hit center at 300M, the ammount of error when I went back to 100 was insignificant. This is because I was not tilting the bullet trajectory, The trajectory was still vertical but divergent in relation to the line of sight. If I had sighted so that the trajectory was parallel to the line of sight, the error would have remained constant in measurment, not moa, all the way out.
The truth is, when I shoot at 900m, I am likely to have to adjust by a half minute or so anyway since I frequently misjudge the wind by at least that much at that range. If my scope is offset by 1/8 inch, it's pretty well lost in the shuffle.
Now, if I have the scope mounted plumb and everything is all fine but I cant the rifle, the picture is entirely different. Now I have tilted the bullet path and introduced an angular error. My shots will hit to the side and low and the error will increase drastically with increased range. GD

Not to under value Shrap's diagram, but this link has bunch of illustrations depicting the effects of cant on bullet impact relative to the line of sight axis. I particularly like Figure 3.

http://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_errors.html

Greydog, that was what I was trying to say with "offset" due to slight cant. But you said it far, far better.

Effing great thread. Time to shut up and listen!