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Originally Posted by 99guy
Originally Posted by T_Inman
I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms


Why would you shoot something with FMJ's if you were intending to kill it?

I wouldn't have any problem showing a black bear 15 properly loaded 9mm's as fast as could pull the trigger at close range.

Just my opinion on the matter.


Hague Convention





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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by T_Inman
I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.

Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.

Just my opinion on the matter.


How many Iraquis did you see shot with 45s?


Zero, though I wish I was afforded the pleasure.



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Originally Posted by lvmiker
Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by lvmiker
If you can draw and fire your handgun into a 6" target at 7 yards 6 times in < 3 seconds you are on the right track. When you can do this on demand w/ the gun you carry all the time you have proved your potential matches your reality.


mike r


I won't say its impossible, but in a realistic situation, to become aware of the threat, draw the weapon and fire 6 rounds into a small target at 7 yards or there abouts all in under 3 seconds, I think one would have to be beyond well practiced..

I don't recall my old IDPA times draw and fire, but thinking even shooting 1-2 times a month I was no where near that fast...

But if you could, you should be well protected.


It is actually quite doable w/ a reasonable amount of practice. In the backcountry I usually carry my Glock in an HPG kit bag and I have to train regularly to draw and fire 6 from it in< 3 sec. I dryfire from it while on the treadmill at least twice/ week.


mike r




Dryfire from a treadmill ?? I can't wait to give that a try.


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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by T_Inman
I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.

Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.

Just my opinion on the matter.


How many Iraquis did you see shot with 45s?


Zero, though I wish I was afforded the pleasure.


T-Inman, thank you for your service!

You might have been similarly unimpressed with a 45. From what I've seen, most handgun rounds are underwhelming on human targets. The 9mm has a considerably bad rep among people who are forced to use FMH. A nice, hot round like a Ranger-t +p in 124 grain will have a considerably better effect than an FMJ, but as with all handgun ammo, shot placement is key (and luck). There have been numerous examples of 45ACP performing exactly as you described. Hollywood has us all filled with false expectations of handgun rounds.
Just my .02 cents as a deputy sheriff/ coroner/ medic.

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Originally Posted by tarzan
Bear spray?

There's group that studied bear attacks and incidences, collected a ton of data and charted it. I watched their entire long video report. I'm not an expert but I'll repeat what I remember...

Their advice was:
- you have to carry something! Gun or bear spray, which ever you feel more proficient with, but every one in your party should carry something.

- the bear spray is more efficient protection than a gun. They clarified that this is all about being proficient with what you carry.

After watching the report I now carry bear spray. I'll have a lightweight revolver on me too but it's not my primary bear defense and I'll tell you why.

If I'm backpacking and I reach an area that has poor visibility I'll simply unholster my bear spray and carry it in my hand, at the ready. I can't comfortably do that with my handgun.

Also, the risk of running into another hiker with gun drawn is very uncool imo but having the bear spray dawn is non-threatening.

I see people out there with nothing at all to guys carrying all sorts of heavy artillery but I don't judge. I figure I'll carry what I'm comfortable with and mind my business.



I worked on a road job in Yellowstone for 4 month. Only time I seen bear sprayed deployed was when a Nutty flagger girl deployed a can by accident. In the front of her carhart pants. Worked good, she was down to just panties and a tee shirt in no time running for a creek!!!!!!
She was a strange person to start with and this did nothing to allure her to others, but it was funny and broke up the work day!!!

Last edited by wyoming260; 07/01/16.
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Originally Posted by sgt217
Originally Posted by Timberbuck
.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).



With comparable loads the 9mm far outperforms the .40...


Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh!

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Originally Posted by 458Win
Having lived with and among big bears for nearly 40 years I would say that normal situations with them is not really comparable to those with inner city humans. The ability to draw your weapon quickly is not usually an issue as there is no reason to not have a weapon already in your hand if you perceive a threat. And a bear poses no threat if it is still at 7 yards. Or even 3 yards !
Notice that my pistol is still in the full flap holster as I attempt to scare these two sub adults away from the airplane. And there are at least 3 other adult bears just outside of the photo.

[Linked Image]

If you can hit something the size of a 12 oz can or grapefruit multiple times in rapid succession, at 10 feet or less you should be relatively safe.
I find tossing items into the air and shooting them is a good practice for instinctively hitting smallish, moving targets .


And just why the hell are you parking your plane at a bear feeding station?????? smile


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Originally Posted by leftycarbon
Brad,

We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night.
I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.

LC


Betcha you do have griz in Colorado. You just don't know it. All bears are elusive, generally. At least the good ones are. I have between 4 and 10 brown bears in my immediate area of my home here in Sterling. And it's fishin time, right now. Saw a brownie track in the driveway this morning.

Haven't actually seen a bear in years. Here. Good neighbors!

There were "no grizzlies in Northern Idaho" when I was USFS summer trail crew there in 1967 and 68. Ha! And she had cubs, so there was a male around!

In period 78-80 I was in gunsmithing school in Lakewood. A bow-hunter had to hand-kill with his arrow a griz that was on him. - said griz of course did not exist at that time in Colorado. Officially.

Hard to argue with a hand-stabbed carcass, tho.


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What about a Glock 20?


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Originally Posted by las
Originally Posted by 458Win
Having lived with and among big bears for nearly 40 years I would say that normal situations with them is not really comparable to those with inner city humans. The ability to draw your weapon quickly is not usually an issue as there is no reason to not have a weapon already in your hand if you perceive a threat. And a bear poses no threat if it is still at 7 yards. Or even 3 yards !
Notice that my pistol is still in the full flap holster as I attempt to scare these two sub adults away from the airplane. And there are at least 3 other adult bears just outside of the photo.

[Linked Image]

If you can hit something the size of a 12 oz can or grapefruit multiple times in rapid succession, at 10 feet or less you should be relatively safe.
I find tossing items into the air and shooting them is a good practice for instinctively hitting smallish, moving targets .


And just why the hell are you parking your plane at a bear feeding station?????? smile



The Silvers were running !!
Plus bear photographers were having fun


Phil Shoemaker
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Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I've never sprayed a bear with either peper spray or a CN/CS weapon. But I have spayed more than just a couple of people with both CN and CS tear gas. In fact, in order to allowed to carry or use them, I was sprayed with both.
That and I've seen both CN and CS used by several others on people. Those same people tell me pepper spray is alot "nicer" and not nearly as effective on people. It was adopted by law enforcement because tear gas was very unpopular, or, in other words, pepper spray is more politically correct.
Very emotional people, or those under the influence of some drug/alcohol do not "think/reason their way through being sprayed." If you were ever sprayed with either you'd know what I'm refering to. With CS gas, the biggest problem is straying on your feet and not vomiting.
Bears, to me at least, are far tougher/more emotional, etc. than people. Since I've seen and experienced such a poor record for CN/CS teat gas on agitated people, I have no desire to gamble with my safety by using it on a bear. E

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Originally Posted by pseshooter300
What about a Glock 20?


Thats what my wife carries in AK if she isn't carrying a 329 PD.


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Not much to add but any pistol is not a bear stopper. I have only shot one black bear with a 45 colt with a Corbon load.

I have pulled a pistol several times on grizzlies and am so glad I did not need to do the deed. This was when I was a fly fishing guide on the Unalakleet. Bears there were hunted and harassed by the locals so less of a problem then elsewhere.

Whenever clients were on their own and I loaned them a pistol I always instructed them to wait until they could insert the muzzle into the right nostril of the bear and this would provide the proper angle. If this didn't work I suggested saving the last round for yourself, all this to get their attention and avoid a serious situation. Just glad no one had to do this.

Forgot to add my other piece of advice. If you don't have claw marks on you I will gladly provide some with my fillet knife.

OK listen to Phil.

Last edited by Tejano; 07/05/16.

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peashooter I bought a Glock 20 and use 220 gr Cast loads by Buffalo Bore. Very popular up here 220 gr load and 14 of his friends! Easy to shoot well, and easy to throw it in my bag with 3 mags 45 rounds.


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[Linked Image]

This party was unknowingly hosted by friends of mine. The guests were, you guessed it, Ursus arctos.

The treats included:

[Linked Image]

...oven cleaner, Aqua-Chem toilet chemical (w/ formaldehyde), urethane aerosol foam for appetizers, among other aerosol treats...WD-40, starting fluid, etc, etc. I guess I am less than impressed by what chemicals might do to an imminent bear.

Last edited by Klikitarik; 07/05/16. Reason: stupid spell-check

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Originally Posted by justin10mm
Originally Posted by sgt217
Originally Posted by Timberbuck
.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).



With comparable loads the 9mm far outperforms the .40...


Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh!


Having done many tests on penetration and on real life situations, I can assure you that 40 caliber rounds were developed for the FBI merely to appease the rank and file....I stand by my statements...


********


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I will be hunting this year in Oregon with a 45/70 and my Remington 1958 cap and ball most of the Deer and Elk hunting seasons. I also will have a Bear and Cougar tag. hope to take a Deer with the cap and ball revolver if the distance allows.I won't shoot it over 30 yds. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a bear or cougar with the 44 Remington if close enough.

No doubt the 45/70 is up to the task.:-)

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Originally Posted by sgt217




Having done many tests on penetration and on real life situations


+1




Dave


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
[Linked Image]

This party was unknowingly hosted by friends of mine. The guests were, you guessed it, Ursus arctos.

The treats included:

[Linked Image]

...oven cleaner, Aqua-Chem toilet chemical (w/ formaldehyde), urethane aerosol foam for appetizers, among other aerosol treats...WD-40, starting fluid, etc, etc. I guess I am less than impressed by what chemicals might do to an imminent bear.


That's amazing. I mouth full of EZ Off would be nasty shidt!


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Looks like my daughter's room.



[Linked Image]







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