24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
I had an interesting discovery in a box of my old reloads recently. I posted this in another thread and didn't get any ideas so I will try it here.

This is a puzzle to me. I have a plastic storage container that has several boxes of 30-30 ammo, factory and reloads, that has always been stored indoors. I recently pulled out an old box of Federal ammo that had been once fired and reloaded back in 1999. I was going to shoot it up since it was one of the older boxes I had.

When I opened the box there was massive corrosion on many of the cases. As you can see, after I reloaded these cases I placed them back in the Federal factory plastic cartridge holders and put them back in the factory box.

[Linked Image],



Here is the load:
[Linked Image],



The slightest pressure on the side of the bullet snapped the case in two. There are fine cracks in the neck under those lines of corrosion. The powder appears normal.

[Linked Image],



The strange thing, also, is that when I dumped out the powder, the entire inside of the case was covered in corrosion, from the head to the neck. It appeared that the cases had corroded from the inside out.


[Linked Image],



This is what the base of the bullet looked like:

[Linked Image],


I checked all of the other ammo that was in the plastic storage box, including some other reloads of the same age. This corroded lot was the only box of Federal cases. There was no corrosion present on any of the other ammo. Not even a speck. Other brands of cases loaded with the same load looked fine. The plastic cartridge holders didn't seem to be the cause.

I still have some of the same lot of R-P 150 gr. Core-Lokt bullets on my shelf, and they look fine.

As far as I know, these cases were not treated any differently when I reloaded them back in 1999. I don't tumble my cases or use any liquid cleaners. I don't understand how the corrosion started from the inside, if that is what happened. That is how it seems. The powder that I dumped out of the broken case looks perfectly normal.

Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen? Does anybody know what happened here? Is it just a bad lot of cases? Could it be some kind of reaction between the bullet matel and the brass? The worst of the corrosion is all around the base of the neck. This is a first for me in 50 years of reloading. Comments and suggestions are welcome.



Nifty-250

"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
HR IC

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
nifty-two-fifty

Posted a WAG on your other post.


Ed

A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.

The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Y
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Y
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Any chance you had something salty on your fingers when reloading these or putting them in the ammo boxes? Eating chips or crackers, etc while working? Salt will corrode brass pretty badly.

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,206
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,206
Seems like if it was salt on the fingers the corrosion would be working from the outside. This looks like it started on the inside.


Let's Go Brandon! FJB
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
Prwlr,

Thanks for your thoughts. I did not tumble the brass. I treated these cases the same as I treat all my rifle cases.
I use 0000 steel wool to clean the outside and clean the inside of the necks with the nylon brush and mica powder in the Midway case neck lube kit.


Yondering,

Salt? Possibly. But I normally never eat or drink in my loading room and I usually wash my hands before starting loading. And I always wash my hands when I am done loading, just as a precaution due to lead exposure. Cheap health insurance, even if it isn't needed.

If something like salt exposure could have done this, it seems like I would have seen it before sometime over the years. And it does seem like the corrosion started on the inside of the case.

Just supposing that I did do something weird with this lot of cases all those years ago, it seems like someone in the Campfire universe would have also seen this happen before.

It would be nice to solve this mystery.


Nifty-250

"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
IC B2

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,522
G
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
G
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,522
My guess is that since you didn't tumble clean the cases, there was old powder and primer residue in there and over time it attacked the brass case. I'm not a chemist but I know that when the powder and primer combust, they create other compounds. Whatever came out of it must have been fairly corrosive. Maybe they were trying a new priming compound or found some old corrosive primers in the warehouse and wanted to use them up. ;-)

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
A
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
A
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
The color of the corrosion and the extreme brittleness of the brass looks like ammonia damage to me.
That's what propane tank valves look like that have been re-purposed to hold anhydrous ammonia for meth cooks after they steal it from a farmers ammonia pigs.

Why it is concentrated around the shoulder/neck is a puzzlement, for sure!

You have an enemies back then that had access to Brasso and your ammo? shocked grin

Ed

Last edited by APDDSN0864; 10/14/16. Reason: kaint typ ner spel

"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell



Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
No Brasso or any other ammonia compounds that I know of.
And the cases seem to have been eaten from the inside out.


Nifty-250

"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,663
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,663
If one had access to a chemists, they could do an analysis and determine the composition of the residue. Don't have any sitting around our neighborhood though.


1Minute
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
D
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
D
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
Not too mysterious....

Here's the link.

[Linked Image]

Apparently your powder has deteriorated. That yields corrosive compounds that destroy the brass.

Last edited by denton; 10/15/16.

Be not weary in well doing.
IC B3

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,206
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,206
Good info in that link, thanks Denton.


Let's Go Brandon! FJB
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,537
Denton,

Thank you for that LINK. It is extremely educational and I recommend it to all shooters and reloaders.

The idea that powder and ammunition will last indefinitely in a good storage environment is absolutely false.

Deterioration of powder, no matter how slow begins on day one. A takeaway from that link is that the experts consider all powder over about 20 years old to be suspect. Federal declares a safe shelf life of ten years for their ammunition. If one assumes that Federal is being very conservative and you double their shelf life figure you still wind up at 20 years.

According to the link the military keeps samples of the powder used in all their ammo and artillery shells and monitors it for years as to the rate of deterioration. When they estimate a lot of powder has three years of safe life left they put out a notice that the ammo with that powder has to be used up or destroyed by the three-year end date.

Extreme heat is shown to deteriorate powder very quickly. I wonder if this has been a problem for our military in the extreme heat of the Middle East?

I had heard that when the Marines or Army puts on a "mad minute" demonstration that much of the ammo used is old and needs be used up. I have heard this explanation when someone questioned whether the "mad minute" exercise was a big waste of taxpayer money.

Here is a civilian "mad minute" video. Multiply this effect several times over for some of the military demonstrations. These are used as morale boosters for the troops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuSbT4T3o4g,

I am sure that I have some powder in my inventory that is at or over the 20-year point. I also have factory and reloaded cartridges that are that old or older. I will now make it a point to inspect and use up that old ammo and powder instead of thinking it will last forever.

Denton, thank you again for that educational link. I now know that it was nitric acid caused by deterioration of the powder that ruined my cases, even though the powder still looked normal. Given more time there would have been visible changes to the powder. As explained in the link, the problem is made worse by moisture or heat.

All the more reason to store ammo and powder in cool, dry conditions.



Nifty-250

"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 366
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 366
Thanks for clearing that up denton.

Had two boxes of Winchester .220 Swift ammo in yellow boxes that developed the same symptoms. Got them when Old Western Scrounger had a yard sale of old stock items. Looked fine when I bought them but a couple of years later the cases were full of holes. They had been stored in a metal building and had undoubtedly been subjected to excessive heat. Glad I didn't shoot any.


One unerring mark of the love of the truth is not entertaining any proposition with greater assurance than the proofs it is built upon will warrant. John Locke, 1690
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,663
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,663
Great posts here. Thanks to all,


1Minute
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
D
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
D
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,112
Just a guess:

The deterioration probably begins when a granule of powder comes in contact with a droplet of liquid water, particularly in a confined space like a cartridge case. (If you use your breath to blow crud out of a case, you will deposit droplets of saliva.) The granule then begins to decompose into various compounds which probably include more water. That makes the process self-propagating.

I have powder that dates back to about 1950 that seems to be good and still shoots well. It has been kept indoors, and the air here in Utah is usually pretty dry.


Be not weary in well doing.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Thanks Denton.


Ed

A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.

The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 557
H
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
H
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 557
Thanks Denton...good information !

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,076
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,076
denton;
Good evening sir and thanks for the educational link - as usual your post was helpful for me.

In the post in the other area of the forum I related how something similar had happened to me with a bulk canister powder marketed as H4350 equivalent but marked VV N160.

Until nifty's thread I'd never heard of it happening to anyone else and as you can imagine always wondered if it was something I'd done wrong or what exactly had transpired.

Thanks again sir and all the best to you folks this fall.

Dwayne


The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,313
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,313
I have seen several of these corroded case events here on the fire and on other forums. Each time it was with VV powder. Now I'm starting to wonder if they are not taking the time to remove the residual nitric acid from manufacturing. The link above shows a jug of VV gassing off.

I use a lot of VV140 in my M1 and M14 loads, so now I will keep a close tabs on these loads. Luckily they are shot up within a month or two of being loaded.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Originally Posted by nifty-two-fifty
...
This is a puzzle to me. I have a plastic storage container that has several boxes of 30-30 ammo, factory and reloads, that has always been stored indoors. I recently pulled out an old box of Federal ammo that had been once fired and reloaded back in 1999. I was going to shoot it up since it was one of the older boxes I had.

...

I checked all of the other ammo that was in the plastic storage box, including some other reloads of the same age. This corroded lot was the only box of Federal cases. There was no corrosion present on any of the other ammo. Not even a speck. Other brands of cases loaded with the same load looked fine. The plastic cartridge holders didn't seem to be the cause.

I still have some of the same lot of R-P 150 gr. Core-Lokt bullets on my shelf, and they look fine.

As far as I know, these cases were not treated any differently when I reloaded them back in 1999. I don't tumble my cases or use any liquid cleaners. I don't understand how the corrosion started from the inside, if that is what happened. That is how it seems. The powder that I dumped out of the broken case looks perfectly normal.

Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen? Does anybody know what happened here? Is it just a bad lot of cases? Could it be some kind of reaction between the bullet matel and the brass? The worst of the corrosion is all around the base of the neck. This is a first for me in 50 years of reloading. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

nifty-
Based on the replies to date, have you (or others) any thoughts on why only the Federal cases corroded?

Were any of your reloading procedures different for the Federal cases than for the other brass reloaded at the same time with procedures that were at least similar?

Thanks.
--Bob





Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
708 members (117LBS, 12344mag, 10gaugemag, 01Foreman400, 10Glocks, 75 invisible), 2,695 guests, and 1,303 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,682
Posts18,399,706
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.092s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9038 MB (Peak: 1.0606 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 22:10:31 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS