24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 14 1 2 3 4 13 14
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,719
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,719
Another poster had a good question about primers. Are you guys using magnum primers in your RL22 loads??? I generally use CCI 200's with IMR4350 and they work great. What do you guys use??


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
BP-B2

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
Montana Man,

I don't want to start a big argument, but I'd appreciate hearing how Reloder 22 and MRP differ. They're made in the same factory, they look exactly alike, and the same charges result in the same velocities.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708
A
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708
The burning rate factor (Ba) for MRP is 0.3690 for RL-22 it's 0.3860.

There is that much variance in different lots of the same powder.

So, they are the same in application.

Last edited by Axtell; 11/05/16.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
Axtell,

I'm assuming you're getting the Ba rates from QuickLoad, and they don't often get enough samples of Alliant powder to get a real handle on them. As a result not only is lot variation often not accounted for, but as you noted, even when if it is, it's not to make a significant difference.

My point, however, is not what QuickLoad says, but the actual physical properties of the powder, including granule size and appearance. Plus, one higher-up at Norma admitted some of their powders (but not all) are the same as some Alliant powders made in the same factory. He said the "difference" was (he hoped) more consistency from lot to lot, perhaps accomplished through Norma's own testing, and maybe further blending than done at the original factory.

With so many obvious similarities in appearance, performance and origin, I was wondering why somebody absolutely stated that MRP and RL-22 are different powders. I'd like to know if they have proof, and if so what.



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Montana Man,

I don't want to start a big argument, but I'd appreciate hearing how Reloder 22 and MRP differ. They're made in the same factory, they look exactly alike, and the same charges result in the same velocities.


Well, actually I kinda think you do, maybe you are loaded for bear & perhaps you have some inside info that makes you want to discuss this......, but I'll play a long & bite wink

Several things make me think it's not EXACTLY the same, though it does seem to perform the same.

Starting with a quote from you a few years ago (I added the bold):

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Norma's always had problems with distribution in America.

Reloder 22 is very similar, if not exactly the same powder. Take a look at the loading data from various sources and it's similar (given the variation in components and barrels). Then buy a pound of RL-22 and compare both powders through a magnifying glass.



Here's the link to it the thread that the quote came from:

What's the scoop with Norma MRP

Then there is the info from Propellant Profiles not too long after RL-22 came out. Besides Hagel's comments, note the comments from the Hercules person.

[Linked Image]

Then there are my own observations:

The powder granules are clearly different. MRP is smaller, more uniform & has a shinier coating on the finished powder. (Coincides with what Hagel said, but I don't think you are much of a fan of Hagel)

Without magnification.
[Linked Image]

Finally, there is the fact that with the same powder charge weights RL-22 takes up more space in a given case, indicating & supporting that it is larger grained & thus bulkier.

Fired '06 cases, same lot, fired in same gun. 63 gr each powder
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The powders may, in fact, be the same from a chemical composition standpoint, but to say that they are EXACTLY the same when clearly there are differences in appearance, would be somewhat misleading, absent some hard statement from Nobel that they are, in fact, EXACTLY the same.

MM


IC B2

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
..... Are you guys using magnum primers in your RL22 loads??? I


I use Fed215's in the 270 with RL22.I started doing that after watching a friends 270 go from fair grouping to very good with RL22 and the magnum primer vs a standard large rifle.

I don't pretend to know exactly why but it worked in that rifle. I have used the Fed 215 with RL22 ever since and it seems to work well.


I started using RL22 back after MRP started to become scarce; or at least a PITA to acquire,and when RL22 was introduced.. Norma was not always the most reliable company when it came to delivering products over here.

Then Alliant brought out RL22 and some gun writers indicated the stuff was like MRP. I worked up 280 Remington loads with the new RL22 and the charges and velocities were similar to what Layne Simpson showed for the 280 with MRP.

I also used Rl22 in the 270,7 Rem Mag,300 Win Mag, 300 H&H,300 WSM,7mm Dakota etc etc. Always worked well.

I have no idea whether MRP and RL22 are same powder or not but some say it is.

Have not used MRP in a long time and ever since then saw no need since RL22 seemed to do the same things.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Another poster had a good question about primers. Are you guys using magnum primers in your RL22 loads???


With both '22 & MRP.............non-magnum case = standard primer; magnum case = magnum primer.

I've never had an issue.

MM

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Montana Man

That Propellant Profile is a really old reference. Not arguing just saying...


Ed

A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.

The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
Montana Man,

Thanks, that helps clear things up.

I have nothing against Hagel, except some minor objections to some of his supposedly scientific methodology, and in fact still refer to (and recommend) GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS from time to time.

But I also wouldn't recommend relying on a now pretty old magazine article as a reference for today, and have been told, ah, "mistruths" by industry people before, especially when they're trying to make their product sound unique.

My present batches of Norma MRP and Alliant Reloder 22 are very recent. One ways to tell is that Western Powders, the company that now imports Norma powders (along with the Ramshot and Accurate powders they own the names to) gets them in bulk, and repackages them here in Montana in plastic containers like the ones for Ramshot and Accurate. This has been the case for 2-3 years now, and my MRP is some obtained from Western, and looks EXACTLY the same as my present Reloder 22, which was purchased in the last couple of years.

Not only that, but the same charges of both powders result in the same muzzle velocities in the same cartridges, loaded with bullets, powders and primers from the same containers, in the same rifles. And a a 75-grain charge of both powders fills a fired Federal .300 Winchester Magnum case to the same level.

So yeah, along with the statement from the Norma guy (which is much more recent than the statement from the Hercules guy in the article), I'd say that yes, the present Norma MRP and Reloder 22 are the same powder. But that might not be true 10 years from now.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
Originally Posted by BullShooter
Originally Posted by gunner500
... my rifle settled in nicely just North of 60 grains for 2700 fps with the 200 gr NPT's, that is a badass load in the old '06!

gunner500 and others-

Twenty months ago I worked up a load for my M1885 with the 27" barrel of the 200 NPT with RL22. 58 grains produced 2725 fps and also primer leaks. 57 grains gave about 2680 fps, so I considered that max. Temps at testing were 35°F. Since the ammo and rifle were heading for Namibia, I thought maybe 57 grains was not all that conservative, and might be well above 2700 fps with temperatures of 95°F.

The Problem: I was using Norma brass and Winchester WLR primers. Last year I found my lot of primers was one of the ones to be recalled, so I'm thinking of redoing the test with either replacement WLRs or something else. The primer leaks with WLRs may have been a false-positive for pressure problems.

QUESTION: What primers and what make(s) of brass are you using for your loads using RL22 and 200 NPTs?

Thanks.
--Bob


Thanks Bob, I use CCI-250 and WW brass in my '06 hell-bender loads, brass has lasted 4 firings so far with no signs of loose pockets or cracks. cool


Trump Won!
IC B3

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Another poster had a good question about primers. Are you guys using magnum primers in your RL22 loads??? I generally use CCI 200's with IMR4350 and they work great. What do you guys use??


Yessir, CCI-250's, have used Fed-215's with equal accuracy and velocity.


Trump Won!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Ok, sort of figured that you had an ace up your sleeve. laugh

I have some of the newly packaged MRP as well but I just took some out of one of the old metal cans of it (for the pics) that I still have so I'll look at the new stuff & see what it looks like compared to the old(er) MRP. I'll post up some new pics after I do that in the next day or two.

I've always thought the performance has been the same & as I said earlier, I've used them pretty interchangeably after confirmation in a given rifle for a long time. Problem has always been until recently, getting a steady supply of the Norma stuff.

I probably have enough between the 2 powders to last a very long time.

MM

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
Yep, it's been a lot easier getting Norma powders since Western took over distribution!


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,871
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,871
Mr. Mule_Deer
Speaking of the 200 gr. bullet what would you estimate it's velocity if loaded in 308 NM brass and a 24 inch. barrel. Thanks for your time. Cheers NC

Last edited by northcountry; 11/05/16.

don't judge until you have walked a mile in other persons' moccasins'
SUM QUOD SUM........HOMINEM TE ESSE MEMENTO
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,440
S
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,440
Something of interest, this was some years ago............

Quote
"Winchester WXR Powder Rivals RL22 at Much Lower Cost ($13/lb)

Here’s a good deal for magnum shooters on a tight budget. If you need a quality, slow burn-rate powder suitable for large-capacity cartridges, check out Winchester WXR powder. Production of WXR has been discontinued, but quantities are still available. PrecisionReloading.com has 8-lb jugs of Winchester WXR for $104.49, which works out to just $13.06 per pound. Grafs.com has 1-lb containers of Winchester WXR for $13.99, on “close-out” pricing (limited quantities, no back-orders). Winchester WXR is a Swedish-made, double-base, slow-burning extruded propellant used in larger-size cartridges. WXR is an excellent choice for the .25-06, .270 Win, .30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 7mm WSM and 300 WSM cartridges. Some industry observers have suggested that Winchester WXR is virtually the same as Alliant Reloder 22. We can’t confirm that, but the load recipes are similar. Keep in mind that, at $13.06 per pound, WXR is nearly six bucks per pound cheaper than Reloder 22 (in 5-lb containers).

The Reload Bench’s Burn Rate Comparison Chart shows WXR having a burn rate very close to Vihtavuori N165 and IMR 7828. In tests with a .25-06, WXR delivered velocities 30 to 60 fps higher than Reloder 22, with equal loads grain for grain (see WXR vs. RL22 report). In the .25-06, the WXR was slightly more energetic than Reloder 22, so a max load with WXR proved to be about 1.0 grain lower than a RL22 max load. Another WXR user writes: “I’ve been using it for the last three years in my 7 STW, 7mm Mag, 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag, .30-06 and .270 Win. It chronographs nearly identical to Reloder 22, so keep that in mind when working up loads with it. From what I’ve researched about it, the company in Sweden who makes powder for Norma, also makes Reloder 22 and made Win WXR. Remember powder can vary slightly from lot to lot, so start low and work your way up.”


I ended up buying a boat load Win WXR for $12.00 a lb.

Works great too!


I also prefer 30/200's over the 180's.







Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
E
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
I need to try me some H4831. Although IMR 4350 works great I mine. Just don't get the velocities of some of the other powders.. I think gunner uses RL22 in his to get some pretty decent speeds too....


You bet buddy, my rifle settled in nicely just North of 60 grains for 2700 fps with the 200 gr NPT's, that is a badass load in the old '06! wink
Is that from a 22" or 24" barrel,Gunner?


Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association

Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell

Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard

Ken
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
24" barreled pre-64 Buddy.


Trump Won!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
E
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 95,303
Thanks Gunner.

Last edited by elkhunternm; 11/05/16.

Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association

Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell

Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard

Ken
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
G
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,211
Yo welcome Main. cool


Trump Won!
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,719
B
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
B
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,719
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
..... Are you guys using magnum primers in your RL22 loads??? I


I use Fed215's in the 270 with RL22.I started doing that after watching a friends 270 go from fair grouping to very good with RL22 and the magnum primer vs a standard large rifle.

I don't pretend to know exactly why but it worked in that rifle. I have used the Fed 215 with RL22 ever since and it seems to work well.


I started using RL22 back after MRP started to become scarce; or at least a PITA to acquire,and when RL22 was introduced.. Norma was not always the most reliable company when it came to delivering products over here.

Then Alliant brought out RL22 and some gun writers indicated the stuff was like MRP. I worked up 280 Remington loads with the new RL22 and the charges and velocities were similar to what Layne Simpson showed for the 280 with MRP.

I also used Rl22 in the 270,7 Rem Mag,300 Win Mag, 300 H&H,300 WSM,7mm Dakota etc etc. Always worked well.

I have no idea whether MRP and RL22 are same powder or not but some say it is.

Have not used MRP in a long time and ever since then saw no need since RL22 seemed to do the same things.


Thanks Bob. I appreciate that info, for both the 270 with 150's and the ol 06 with 200 partitions. I'll give RL22 a try and use magnum primers too. Thanks!!


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
Page 2 of 14 1 2 3 4 13 14

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
669 members (1minute, 1Akshooter, 10gaugemag, 1beaver_shooter, 17CalFan, 73 invisible), 3,180 guests, and 1,452 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,673
Posts18,399,532
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.124s Queries: 14 (0.006s) Memory: 0.9164 MB (Peak: 1.0767 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 21:00:39 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS