Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Great Broadmouth Canyon Elk Massacre 2016

jwall,



Indians used to drive entire herds off cliff to salvage a few. Is that what you would do?



Deserve? That's a tree hugger's word. Are you into that?

Ringman NO to both ?s

I didn't expect to be misunderstood.

I can't go into detail NOW and I hope there is no need.

Jerry

Smokey, I'll get to your ?? later

You weren't misunderstood. You said that what 201k described in his post should be illegal.

I just asked what part should be illegal, and why.

That's great.

I saved my pennies and went to NZ last year and killed a stag and a tahr. I had one day left, and decided to do a chamois hunt. Due to time constraints, I went for the helo hunt. At first when we were chasing them around the mountain I was thinking "this isn't for me" but decided to go for it anyhow, because it is a New Zealand thing...

Anyhow after spotting a good ram, I was dropped off and the pilot chased it towards me. I quickly learned that making a responsible shot at a chamois bouncing along on cliff faces was MUCH harder than it seems to be. I led him a bit too much and/or he turned just as I touched off a shot, taking the back of his head off.

Well, they decided to let me also shoot a ewe so I could have a serviceable cape. This time, I shot directly from a hovering helo with a scoped rifle. Again, this was MUCH harder than one would think, due to the vibrations and other distractions. I really bore down and made a great 80 or so yard shot. It was a great "shoot", if one wants to call it that, that was seriously one of my more proud achievements, once I had time to think about it.

My chamois is now mounted (ram's horns/ewe cape) on my wall and I am just as proud of the whole situation as my DIY Montana wilderness wolf, and some of the DIY elk and mule deer I have taken over the years.

If I can ever afford to go back to NZ, I wouldn't mind stalking a chamois that I spotted from the bottom (like I did with my tahr) so I can say I have done it both ways. Both techniques have their challenges, as I found out.

OK, deep breath, You ask a LOT of ??? fairly.

Let me lay a basis first please. I DON'T consider myself superior, nor others inferior. IF any of you spent time w/me hunting or not, you would not think I'm a snob. I'm not and I don't act and/or think that way.

#2.In general I'm opposed to hunting SMALL acreage HI fence hunting of captive deer-elk-bison etc.

If someone has LARGE acreage inside Hi fence where animals are free to do their thing, that's one thing. Specifically I'd describe myself opposed to CALLING a game 'shoot' hunting

# 1. I addressed my opinion ON the description given in the OP. That seemed TO ME a whole lot different from what we commonly consider deer drives. Limiting the 'shooter' to THE bull KNOWN for rack measurements etc. I've never observed nor participated in a deer drive "LIKE" what was described.

Also per #2. I'm opposed to CALLING it 'hunting' when/where the animals cannot avoid the 'shooter'

#3. I understand farming, cattle, bison, pheasant, fish etc.
I don't call it fishing in a "barrel". NO I wouldn't make farming illegal---just don't call it Fair Chase Hunting.

#4. IF we, like the American Indians, depended upon wild game for for subsistence w/o modern firearms, Binos, LRFs, 4 wheelers, 4X4 vehicles etc. etc.
---I/we would do what we HAD to do to survive.
---Hunting today normally is NOT subsistence hunting.

#5. I feel I covered with #3.

#6. You/anyone can legally farm/sell/butcher anything, just don't call it 'HUNTING' and especially FAIR CHASE. IMO

#7. I like how you described "the privilege of shooting", no, not illegal but it's NOT necessarily hunting.
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Part of this comes under 'semantics'-- how we describe/understand wording.

Part of this has to do with how we were raised and what we consider "ethical".

I've done my best to accurately answer your ??? and I didn't mind. However I'm not going to spend time debating the minute details others might have.

Jerry

Jerry, with all due respect, it's not semantics.

You said it should be outlawed, which has a very specific meaning. Either it's legal, or it's illegal, there are no gray areas.

Now I see that you've backed off of that and are saying it's not fair chase, and not what you consider to be "hunting."

I agree with both of those, 100%.

I just don't think it should be illegal. The only part of it that should be illegal IMO, is not keeping up the fences and not exercising enough care to make sure that no potentially-diseased (CWD) animals escape. Because that can affect a lot more than just the participants.

As I've said before, elk farming is agriculture with some of the entertainment industry thrown in. It's no different than raising beef other than how they're killed. If a farmer can find someone who will pay thousands to shoot his elk, more power to him.
Farmed elk are selectively bred for antler size, just like beef is bred for bigger meat cuts. There's no difference.
Nomenclature, like 'hunting' or 'butchering' is irrelevant to the industry. It's still farming.

The fact that elk ranching is an agricultural endeavor brings up another point that should concern all hunters. The SPCA has managed to get all kinds of rules enacted regulating how farm animals are killed. I've wondered why they haven't gone after high fence operations claiming that slaughter methods should be the same as those used in slaughter houses. If they could succeed in doing that, they'd be much farther along in getting real hunting stopped for the same reason.

While elk farming is agriculture, it's better for all of us if we keep calling it hunting, high fence or not. The more leverage we have against animal rights groups, the better.

If the anti's "finish off" hunting it won't be because of places like Broadmouth Canyon. All hunters could still nowadays be hunting game exclusively with spears, or traditional bows and arrows, and the anti's would still be doing everything they could to get it outlawed.

I don't give a rats a$$ what the anti's think. About anything.

Three buddies who post on this website got together and spent some time in some pretty country, ate some good food, drank some good bourbon, and likely smoked some good cigars, and they shot some good animals that made them happy and filled their freezers with some good venison.

Some people don't think other folks should be able to buy soda pop in 44 ounce Super Big Gulps either.


lol

Smokey, I said "part of it" is/was/could be semantics NOT all.

In the context of the described OP, it borders on what I 'feel' is 'unethical'. Unethical will vary among people. And I don't feel "how that hunt- WAS DESCRIBED -" should be legal.

I'm used to 'legal' being applied, in the 4 States I've hunted, to FAIR CHASE. No I didn't "back off', just trying to be more specific (semantics).

Let me re state that: I'm used to legal = fair chase.

I totally agree w/your last paragraph. Maintenance and proper health care of whatever herd, flock, school the animal happens to be should be guarded.


ALSO, I've read a few pages past the OP now AND I may have been deceived (??), don't know yet and I'm not thru with that subject.

What's the old saying...
"Fool me once, shame on you...
Fool me twice, shame on ME.

Again Smokey, I'm only trying to be specific. I am afraid of what I WILL determine about the OP.

Jerry

hatari - IF you are still on this thread....

Thanks for this post. I'm just now reading P 4 and I'm in FULL quandary. I wish I had read past the OP before my reply.

Jerry

OK then, what about the OP should be made illegal, and why?

That was and is my only question for you.

If you want to say it has to be "fair chase" to be legal, there are all kinds of problems with that.

Like outlawing all of the high fence operations in Texas. B&C and P&Y don't consider hunting behind a high fence "fair chase." So all of that has to go.

Or baiting bears. Or chasing deer with hounds. Or planting farm-raised pheasants in a field for a couple of guys to shoot on a Sunday afternoon.

All of it has to be outlawed, right?


Not to mention as Rockchuck pointed out, it's agriculture and animal husbandry, not hunting.

Baiting bears is still considered fair chase last time I looked.

Yep, you are correct.

Depends WHERE you hunt bear. Baiting bear is ILLEGAL in Ark. except on private property.

Jerry

Well, it seems to me there are MANY ?s raised by you.

I've answered as specifically I can.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Your Friend
Jerry

no f u c k i n g s h i t Sherlock...

[quote=jorgeI][quote=jwall]

no f u c k i n g s h i t Sherlock...
[quote]

Hold your horse there Jorge. I ain't done yet.

Also I haven't been critical of you, your hunt, or hunting party ONE TIME.
I haven't equated YOUR hunt to 201's "descriptions" in the least.
I give 'everyone' full face value including you.

It APPEARS that I might have made a mistake but the jury is still out.
Hatari said above that no one doubted the OP 's story.....

If I have made a mistake I am man enough to stand up and admit it.

You have jumped to a conclusion.

I consider myself your friend as well. I've read more of your post than WE have talked to each other but we have.

Give me a little slack.

Jerry

There are several high fence elk shooting ranches here in eastern Idaho. I always assumed the customers of such establishments know what they are getting when they book a shoot.

They raise many of them in a few different fields not too far from my house. You can go watch them through the fence. They load a few at a time in trailers and haul them up to the ranch as they need them. The guides usually know the elk pretty well because they helped haul them from the pasture to the ranch. I'm not judging, just saying how it is.

Bb

That is absolutely disgusting!

You made me puke!