Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors New York Military Trials misc

Published in "The Gun Report" in March, 1968. Just ordered it off of ebay for $8.69, I'll let you know what's in it when it gets here.
I'd run across that pdf while researching the trials, but hadn't thought to go find Gilbert's article for some reason (maybe because it was 2am?). Appreciate the prod.


I'm wondering if Bethel Burton wasn't referring to the entire time that the Savage rifle had been under development and all of the expenses put into the 1892/1893/1895 research and development, rather than just the expense of the trial rifle? I can see Arthur W. Savage talking up how much time and effort and revisions and cost he'd put into developing this gun while including the entire 3+ years.

Or that Bethel Burton picked up some 303 Savage ammo rather than the used in the testing, IF they were different.

Compare the 30gr powder load of the 303 Savage to the Commission's test on overcharging a case with 40gr, I don't think you could fit 33% extra powder into a 303 Savage cartridge. Even compressed... 33% is a LOT. If they were using a light load in a 30-40 Krag, then sure.. but I'm not sure why they would use a light load when they were doing 500yd, 800yd and 1000yd accuracy tests.


Savage's 1895 catalog on page 52 refers to ammo being fired for a penetration test using 36gr of powder with a 220gr bullet (the exact ammo specified by the commission). It does not say it was from a Savage rifle, tho it would be odd to include that point in the catalog if it wasn't a Savage rifle. It obviously isn't a 303 Savage since they go to great pains throughout to say 30gr is the proper load for that cartridge.

The 1895 catalog also contains order codes for military rifles and carbines in "U.S. 30 cal", as well as order codes for ".30 cal U.S. Government Shells".

So.. Arthur W. Savage definitely had sights on a rifle in 30-40 Krag. The question is whether one or more were produced, and if so was it used in the New York Militia Trials.

Breaking news... think I have a definitive answer. Have to talk with somebody tomorrow first, though.

Rick, just as a note, my letter states "return, 9/3/98 "R" special, Chas E. Lisdall.

Not real sure what an R special is and have yet to dig anything up on a Chas E Lisdall.

That's interesting. It shows you can lengthen the basic design for longer cartridges. I guess, conversely, you too could shorten the receiver for smaller cartridges. Thanks for taking the measurements.

The 1892 prototype at the factory has a 33" barrel and felt a good deal heavier than 10 pounds. Unfortunately I didn't have a way to weigh it.
There are a few other errors in the article that I won't go into unless you guys want me too. One of the glaring errors is that he said the sporting rifles were made in nearly 30 different calibers. I only know of 14, or 15 if you include the .410 shotgun. He also said the sporting rifles were made in over a dozen different barrel lengths. I only know of four standard lengths: 20, 22, 24 and 26" or six if you count the early optional lengths of 28 and 30".
He talks about a second 1899 musket which is at the factory. He says it is 303 caliber. If he means the musket we're referring to as a pre-1899 I wonder why it would have the longer receiver if it's a 303. It could be a 303 and Savage was developing a longer receiver to accept the 30-40 Krag caliber. But why go to the expense of custom building a longer receiver and then chambering it in 303?
Unfortunately even with new computer glasses I'm unable to read the articles Gene posted. If someone could email them to me at wyomingsavage1895gmail.com. I'd appreciate it.
David

The 32-20 mentioned by Fug has a shorter receiver, the existing example of that is a very neat looking compact design, I think it predated the long ones, it's the one depicted in the 1893 patent that was filed for in 1892 - patents/US491138

added -

MD, if the musket was retuned in 2 days it must have been fairly close to the plant.

Maybe Savage offered some type of free or cheap modification to help sell these musket?

Just went and measured my musket receiver, 3 1/4".

Here's a gorgeous ad for the 1895 provided by Fug that refers to the New York Guard trials. It immediately then talks about the 303 Savage cartridge and it's variations.

Okay, don't know how definitive this is, but it's very interesting. It has me leaning towards the pre-1899 transition musket.

There exists a picture of an expo with a Savage display from the late 1890's. Hanging above the display is a sign that reads:

"THIS IS THE SAVAGE RIFLE THAT WON THE CONTEST FOR ARMING THE STATE OF NEW YORK MILITIA"

The musket hanging there looks to be the pre-1899 transition musket. It has finger grooves on the sides, unlike both Fug's and the Cody museum muskets, it has no side panels on the buttstock, unlike both Fug's and the Cody, and Fug pointed out that it has a bayonet attached which the pre-1899 musket allows for, but both 1895 muskets don't have an attachment for.

I can't think of a good reason that Savage would drag out a non-standard musket for display if a standard 1895 musket in 303 Savage had won the contest. I'm sure they kept a couple of standard 1895 muskets around until the start of the 1899's so that Arthur could keep trying to get military contracts.

So it sounds like there was only the one rifle that was given for trials and it was chambered in 30-40 Krag I'm guessing. Even though it's stated that it must be 30 cal I think the musket they sent was more than likely modified for 30-40 Krag since thats what they were asking for if the rifle had won.

I'm going by the article Jed sent me but specs on the gun sent by Savage say it was a 9 1/2 lb full stocked rifle with a gov't Krag bbl cut to 28" and that the receiver was lengthened to handle the new 30-40 gov't cartridge. As already said the receiver was really made by Pratt and Whitney.

Come to think of it a bunch of us must have that article. If you look at the top of the first page you can just barely see the words "recv'd from John Callahan 1996".

9.5lb and gov't barrel match with what I saw in the newspaper articles, tho I interpreted the gov't barrel part to only mean the metal for the barrel was gotten from the same source as gov't barrels. I think Savage even mentions that in their catalog? The newspaper articles also mention that Arthur talked about reducing the weight by carving the stock down if they got the contract.

Was going to go thru the stuff I got from Jed, but hadn't got to it yet.

I don't find a letter from Jed about it. Would like to have a copy, if possible.

It was the article that was sent out with that packet Jed was sending out about 10 years ago.

I'll see if I have it on the computer somewhere for you Rick.

Trivia from 1898:

Was it hard copy or computer files Jed sent?

Photo copies.

Got a kick out of the last paragraph:


Quote:

Winchesters well known agent Colonel Addis, picked up the Savage rifle and attempted to jam a round in the action. Arthur Savage, a brawny man with a shock of dark hair and a walrus mustache, retaliated by seizing the Winchester and jamming a round into the breech so firmly that it had to be pried out with a knife. Following these solemn proceedings, the board retired to deliberate it's choice.

The receiver opening on the "1893 Patent" rifle is 2 1/16". The factory people thought it was in 32-20 caliber and we generally accept that this is true. Too bad someone couldn't bring in a batch of various calibers of ammo and try them in the prototypes. The factory doesn't have a lot of info on the prototypes.
The receivers could be lengthened to accept longer cartridges. There is a photo of a 30-06 prototype on page 87 of my book. The factory label said it was the only high powered 99 ever built. Ron Coburn told me it was not possible to build a modified 99 action that would accept cartridges of higher pressure than the 308 class of ammo due to the four degree angle where the bolt mates to the rear of the receiver. There is a photo of a cutaway 99 receiver showing this angle on page 122 of my book.
David