Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles What is the optimal powder for 165 gr. bullets in 30'06?????

wyoming260,

OK then, I'll bite--but bet very few other people will now pick IMR4451.

I've had superb luck with IMR4451 in any cartridge/bullet combination where handloaders often pick IMR4350 or H4350, and it works as least as well with 165-168 grain bullets as either 4350. Velocity and accuracy are very similar, and 4451 is also as cold-resistant as H4350. Plus, it contains a decoppering agent, which works.

Hanco, has a bad ankle. You Yanks need to think about being snowed in. Hasbeen

MD,
It will be a while before lots of folks use the newer powders in some of the older cartridges. I've played with 4451 and 4166 in the 257R and 270 but not the -06 yet. It's just easier to adhere to the "if it ain't broke" attitude so if the old tried and true powder works on the old tried and true cartridge, there is not a lot of motivation to try something new.

Yeah, there's no reason to change if it ain't broke. But I didn't try IMR4451 with 165's in the .30-06 just to experiment. I tried it because my supply of H4350 was running low, and it was just about impossible to find. Could get IMR4350 but had become addicted to the H version, due to short-cut powders and consistent performance in cold weather. It worked great, so I started switching to IMR4451, because it's short-cut and cold-resistant--and am glad I did.

Something has been going on with supplies of H4350 over the past few years, aside from the "shortage" created by generally increased demand for shooting supplies. For the past year I've been able to buy IMR4350 pretty easily, along with many other powders that were scarce for a while, including the Ramshot rifle line.

But H4350 has been scarce or non-existent in stores and on websites for several years. Just checked the 5 websites where I buy most of my regular-use powders. NONE had any H4350, but ALL had IMR4451, so am glad to have made the change--and am continuing to switch to IMR4451 in other cartridges where H4350 had long been my go-to powder, such as the .243 Winchester, .257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser. So far 4451 has worked just as well, if not a little better, in every application.

Talking about giving up on or switching from H4350 is almost a blasphemous statement on this and many other forums....
But if it is not available????? That's what I meant about new powders, sometimes new is actually better, sometimes new is AVAILABLE!!!!
Think how many new powders in the "4350" burn rate are available now.
And the "Standard" is unobtainable........

I bought a pound of 4451 for the same reason, no H4350. It worked fine with 150s and 165s in the 30-06 but velocity is a little lower if you stick to Hodgdon's published load.

The surprise was how well it worked with 130s in my 270. The published max load of 56 gr gave me around 3100fps with 130 ballistic tips and averaged 3050 with 130 Hornady sp. Accuracy was at least as good and possibly a little better than the 60 grains of H4831sc that I have been using.

Bob

rshmelzle,

Different lots of 4451 have varied a little, probably due being a new powder. I obtained two different lots the first year, and one resulted in velocities about 50 fps faster than the other lot in loads around 3000 fps. The "faster" batch was much closer to Hodgdon's published data.

Since I only had a couple of pounds of the slower-velocity lot, and eight pounds of the faster one, I eventually mixed them to have a more consistent blend--which will probably happen with new lots as they have more batches to blend.

John,

I've looked at Hodgdon's data for the 4451 compared to what I'm using with H4350, but how did your actual charge weights & velocities compare with 4451 vs H4350?

Thanks.

MM

Good to know!

Seems like a really good powder. At the rate that I use it, an 8lb jug will keep me supplied with 270 & 30-06 ammo for the foreseeable future.

Bob

MontanaMan,

So far IMR4451 has been SLIGHTLY faster than my present batch of H4350. A good example is my 7x57 with 160-grain GameKings: Used to use 46.0 grains of H4350 for right around 2700 fps. Matched it in velocity and accuracy with 45.5 IMR4451. That half-grain has been typical in cartridges using charges of 45-60 grains of powder.

XMR 4350 is a smidge faster than the Hodgdon's or IMR powders of the same number. Pretty much "optimal"

Might look at the powder burn rate chart, and refer to your loading manual(s), if you own any...


Really ought to own several loading manuals just for this kind of "what's optimal" question.


If you're gonna be shooting cast boolits in your 06, you got Unique to consider as "optimal". Of course, it is optimal in every cast rifle load where looking for accuracy over velocity.

Seems like Varget and RL-15 are also pretty optimal for light loads in the .30-06. Haven't ever loaded an 06 under 180gr, but the 165gr is probably gonna do better with a little faster burn rate. Can also include IMR 4064 and 4895 in that mix.

Lots of new powders out there. Best advice for what's optimal is to refer to the Sierra Manual and go with their Accuracy Load for your bullet weight. If it is Accuracy you seek, use their bullets to isolate the variables.


The Lee #2 and latest Sierra books are excellent and compliment each other. I would go with the Accuracy Load as your starting point. Maybe look at the 168 matchking load as the one you want. Millions of those fired in an 06 for sure...

hogan,

Accurate 4350 is no longer called XMR, and the latest version (made in Canada) is considerably slower than IMR4350 and H4350. Or at least my most recent batch is, closer to H4831 than either of the other 4350's.

A couple of manuals other than Sierra's have been listing the most accurate powder for their bullets for a number of years now. Both Varget and RL-15 will work with 165's in the .30-06, but the Barnes manual lists IMR4064 as most accurate. But Nosler's latest manual still lists IMR4350 as most accurate, as it has for a long time.

John,

Thank you; that seems to correlate to Hodgdon's data for the '06 which indicates 4451 to be slightly faster than H4350 in that cartridge as well.

Great info given the lack of availability of H4350 right now although I still have a few pounds left.

MM

In my old Rem Ti Varget was the best with 165's. I would always star with H/IMR4350 though.

Yeah, rifles are individuals. I even owned a .270 Winchester for a while that didn't much care for H4831. But there are overall trends!

My vote is for 57 gr of H4350 with 165 Partitions.

As an aside I will be trying that new IMR 4451!

My vote is for 57 gr of H4350 with 165 Partitions.

I have a 30-06 custom that was originally intended for cast bullet work, so was barreled with a 1 in 12" Douglas. At the time I was shooting more cast than jacketed.

For a while I got off the cast thing and tried to work up a load with a 180 gr. bullets and never could get decent groups. I thought it might be the stock so after several tries at bedding the thing it still wouldn't shoot.

I went up to Deer park and got a stock from McMillan. Was lucky enough to pick up a proper stock for a Mauser action that had been a cancellation. No waiting. After bedding it in the new stock circumstances prevented me from even shooting the rifle for a couple of years and when I finally got around to it it still wouldn't group with 180 gr. bullets.

It sat in the safe for quite a few years after that until one day while having a conversation with a shooting buddy, he suggested trying 165 gr. bullets. I'd been using 165 gr. bullets for years in a .308 so a couple of years ago I loaded up a test series with some 165 gr. Accubonds I have with W760 and went to the range. Of the Crony the top load showed 2800+ FPS and tiny clusters, some as small as 1/2 inch.

I never tried to find full out max for the load but all I can say is two years ago a nice fat cow elk laid down and turned toes up after being hit with that AB bullet. Bullet hit just behind the short ribs and blew up the left lung. The elk moved about 30 feet. collapsed and expired.

I was thinking that bullet might be too light for elk but it did work that time. Near as we could tell it never exited but was not recovered. My thoughts are it was buried in the mess that was her left lung.

The was a sticky over on Accurate Reloading where some guy had done some pressure work with Re17 and 165 and 180 gr. bullets. He used a Pressure trace as I recall. I always meant to print it out if I got hold of some Re17 but by the time I did it had been removed. IIRC, he had some interesting results. Oh well. I'll probably try to figure it out on my own.
Paul B.

I guess if you play around with different powders and loads you will find many that will work great.Here's my list.Rifle-Remington Long Range 30-06 26" barrel.All these loads grouped under an inch in my rifle.Used Winchester and Remington cases.All were loaded with WLRM primers.Shot three deer this year with this load 58.5grs Accurate Arms 4350 - 2990fps.All I can say is Wow! It's a killer.

168gr Nosler BT
52.5grs Accurate Arms 4064 - 2890fps
56.0grs Ramshot Big Game - 2990fps
60.0grs Ramshot Hunter - 2969fps
58.5grs Accurate Arms 4350 - 2990fps
63.0grs Reloader-22 - 2936fps

165gr Nosler BT
58.5grs Accurate Arms 4350 - 3016fps

I don't think it will get the highest velocity, but for the best accuracy on 2 of my 06's H4895. The highest velocity can easily be seen in reloading manuals.