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I sat in on a 'community college' academy firearms class with a couple of my recruits a few years ago. I did this because the dufus instructor kept 'adjusting' the sights on my deputies guns.

Got that fixed PDQ, but the high point of the day was when Instructor Assclown (who had never been anywhere but Hootervile) was trying to demonstrate 'skip-fire' with buckshot and failed to note an uneven seam in the concrete floor. It must have sheared 4-5 pellets because the fragments took out a big four-tube overhead light fixture about 10' in front of him. This big cloud of glowing pixie dust appeared with the sound of falling glass, and just sorta enveloped him. The sight of this combined with his coughing and trying to evade the cloud is forever burned in my memory.

I can't think about it, even today, without laughing a little.


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Dust from the concussions. Not smoke.


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Barrel length and placement matters, but this might help. Also, there may be some difference in how soon one stops with xyz, but it's hard to quantify, and one will never know, unless they have an event.........

I do feel ammo matters - a good bit.....as well as placement.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4593

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Wonder if he hit the other Nigerian..


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Originally Posted by 65BR
Barrel length and placement matters, but this might help. Also, there may be some difference in how soon one stops with xyz, but it's hard to quantify, and one will never know, unless they have an event.........

I do feel ammo matters - a good bit.....as well as placement.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4593


Good read. I used to carry the Remington GS load in my 45.

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I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.






Last edited by Rooster7; 01/11/17.

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Originally Posted by Rooster7
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.






Its called a CNS hit or basically a structural bone hit, besides the central nervous system.

Cant tell you how many heart or lung shot deer Ive seen go past the 200 yard mark with a 50-72 caliber hole in them.

The ones that collect shoulder, backbone, neck or rear shoulders, even when non vital, can be incapacitated.




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Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by Rooster7
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.






Its called a CNS hit or basically a structural bone hit, besides the central nervous system.

Cant tell you how many heart or lung shot deer Ive seen go past the 200 yard mark with a 50-72 caliber hole in them.

The ones that collect shoulder, backbone, neck or rear shoulders, even when non vital, can be incapacitated.



Works the same way with two legged varmints. I've treated MANY chest shot patients. Even got to a couple quick enough before they coded. Shot through the heart and lasted a minute or two after the fact. With a loaded gun, you can do a LOT of bad things in just 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
I don't believe for a moment, that a 230 grain .45 HP sucks for defense purposes (or for offence either)
End of discussion.
I have always considered it the benchmark for self defense performance. No it's not perfect, but it ain't far from it either.

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Originally Posted by Smac1
There are some great choices of ammo for the .45. Corbon has a 165 gr. 1250fps @ 575ft lbs. energy, Liberty has a 78gr. 1900fps @ 600 ft. lbs. I'll take these over a 9mm any day but that too is just my opinion.








So you choose a .45 ACP and then go with high velocity lightweight loads? Seems a bit counter intuitive.

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GG, I agree a bit, but if you drive a larger caliber (already expanded) to similar velocities, it can't hurt - pardon the pun.

I prefer 230 grains, but since a 124 grain 9mm hits the bricks at about 1200 to 1300, why shouldn't a 160 grain .45 at similar velocities be - at a minimum - just as good?


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Originally Posted by Rooster7
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.




It's called a Mozambique drill, or at least it was called that back when I started playing at IPSC back in 1980. Now I think it's called a failure drill.
Draw and fire 2 rounds CoM, stop just long enough to peek over the sights, and if the target is not collapsing, put round no. 3 between the eyes.



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Originally Posted by Dan_Chamberlain
GG, I agree a bit, but if you drive a larger caliber (already expanded) to similar velocities, it can't hurt - pardon the pun.

I prefer 230 grains, but since a 124 grain 9mm hits the bricks at about 1200 to 1300, why shouldn't a 160 grain .45 at similar velocities be - at a minimum - just as good?


Do you understand the effects of sectional density and frontal area?

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butter is bad for you, no wait margarine is worse, don't eat no bacon, nor drink no Oban scotch all deadly, again the 40 is what we been looking for, no its the 9mm. Wait a day and the weather will change.

Bryce says the 9mm sucks, but operators say its just the best? Do I carry one of each???
Cartridge selection for those with sensitive skins


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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by Dan_Chamberlain
GG, I agree a bit, but if you drive a larger caliber (already expanded) to similar velocities, it can't hurt - pardon the pun.

I prefer 230 grains, but since a 124 grain 9mm hits the bricks at about 1200 to 1300, why shouldn't a 160 grain .45 at similar velocities be - at a minimum - just as good?


Do you understand the effects of sectional density and frontal area?


How about you enlighten us doctor?


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History’s Best Handgun Stopped Attackers Cold
The M1911 killed bad guys, made history

https://warisboring.com/the-best-handgun-ever-stopped-attackers-cold-b4cc0c0dae1c#.ogqy7t9ot

If this is a repost, pleae forgive.......


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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
I don't believe for a moment, that a 230 grain .45 HP sucks for defense purposes (or for offence either)
End of discussion.
I have always considered it the benchmark for self defense performance. No it's not perfect, but it ain't far from it either.


it's good enough that I usually have a .45 ACP with me.. That said, there are many days when I carry a .38 S&W, a .357, a 9MM, .44 Mag or a .45 Colt.


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He never mentions the ability to place a shot accurately under pressure. Very telling. Notable that he advocates a six shot 380, but not a 45 of any kind. Just wow.

A few years ago, I happened to have both a 9mm loaded with 124 gr Gold Dots and a 1911 loaded with 200 gr XTP's, while picking up some pigs I shot.

Decided to run an informal test. Pulled the 9mm and shot a dead pig in the head from about 5 - 6 feet. The bullet ricocheted off of the skull. Pulled the 1911 in 45 and tried the same shot from the same distance. The 45/200 XTP produced a hole a bit bigger than a golf ball, penetrating well into the brain cavity.

That was enough to settle the question to my mind.

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Originally Posted by jeffbird
He never mentions the ability to place a shot accurately under pressure. Very telling. Notable that he advocates a six shot 380, but not a 45 of any kind. Just wow.

A few years ago, I happened to have both a 9mm loaded with 124 gr Gold Dots and a 1911 loaded with 200 gr XTP's, while picking up some pigs I shot.

Decided to run an informal test. Pulled the 9mm and shot a dead pig in the head from about 5 - 6 feet. The bullet ricocheted off of the skull. Pulled the 1911 in 45 and tried the same shot from the same distance. The 45/200 XTP produced a hole a bit bigger than a golf ball, penetrating well into the brain cavity.

That was enough to settle the question to my mind.



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Originally Posted by Dan_Chamberlain
GG, I agree a bit, but if you drive a larger caliber (already expanded) to similar velocities, it can't hurt - pardon the pun.

I prefer 230 grains, but since a 124 grain 9mm hits the bricks at about 1200 to 1300, why shouldn't a 160 grain .45 at similar velocities be - at a minimum - just as good?


Sectional density sir.

124gr XTP: .141
185gr XTP: .130

That's comparing a 185 and it's still markedly less sectional density. What that gives you is a VERY large wound, but not a deep one.

I personally think trading expansion for penetration is not a great idea (all within reason of course).

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