24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,248
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,248
Hi Guys:

I'd like to thank Wayne van Zwoll (WvZ) for his latest exclusive article for the Campfire: HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK.

Please use this thread to ask Wayne questions about the article. I hope you find it as informative and enjoyable as I did.

Thanks Wayne!



"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
BP-B2

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 105
M
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
M
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 105
Great article thanks!

Well, I have a question for Wayne!

A friend and myself are heading out after elk this coming November(2017). We fully intend to be hunting the timber as we will be out there for third week of season. I m planning on caring a compact custom 358 Winchester I built from a Rem 700 SA.

I have been working a number of loads for it, so far the most accurate load has been a Hornady 200 gr RN interlock. Its shooting an average of 2684 FPS from my rifle. I have Chronograph nearly 100 rounds for this average now.

My rifle keeps that load under 1/2 inch consistently.

The other loads I have worked are 220 Speer and 225 Partition both at 2500 fps. Both of those loads will shoot into an 1 - 1 1/4 inch if I do my part. These are also excellent loads.

The Nosler Partition offers the the best ballistics easily of all the bullets. It's just a tad less accurate is and is easily the most expensive load to make.

The factory Hornady 200 gr Spire Point also shoots well at 2550-2600 fps. Its fairly accurate and the price equals the cost of my hand loads that are equivalent.

I also have Speer 250 Hot cores I haven't developed a load for yet on hand. I have Barnes 200 gr TTSX as well.

I really want to know if the load that is most accurate (200 grain round nose)or the factory load would also be suitable for hunting elk in challenging third week conditions? Do the benefits of the Nosler out way the other bullets? If its not what bullets may suit better?

Thank You

Last edited by marshland_max; 03/05/17.

Meat Hunters Do It For Dinner.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,016
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,016
Excellent article. Thanks for sharing here.


Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.
*Marvin Simkin* L.A. Times (1992)
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,139
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,139
Excellent article. I really enjoyed that. Thank you for sharing it.


Semper Fi
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
W
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
Great article. Thank-you.

I'm curious about this statement, maybe a misprint??

"You can not kill an elk with any cartridge you can name."

IC B2

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 34
H
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
H
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by WillFish
Great article. Thank-you.

I'm curious about this statement, maybe a misprint??

"You can not kill an elk with any cartridge you can name."


It would probably be better understood if written as "You can fail to kill an elk..."

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,079
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,079
I really liked the article as well. I agree with many of the things you wrote. I don't think I'll be taking my 32 Special or my 30-30 though, cause I don't get to hunt as much as I'd like and I need a little help (a scope and a 200 yard rifle will do). On the other hand your comments on long range shooting of elk is right on. Last year my son and I were hunting in WY. We ran across a hunter whose first words to us was my rifle can kill elk at 1,000 yards. We avoided that hunter, rather we avoided that shooter. Hunting is a lot different than shooting, IMHO.


I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 474
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 474
Wayne,

I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for sharing your real life experiences in hunting and shooting Elk.

It seems that most hunters talk of "shooting", rather than hunting. Whether it is Deer, Elk, Moose, .. etc. The conversation is generally about the cartridge, sectional density, ballistics, tactical turrets and long distance shots. Today, rarely does one hear a hunter tell of their skill in closing the distance - rather that their rifle shoots 1/2 MOA and is deadly to 1000 yds from the bench (in a lead sled).

As a younger man, I acquired a copy of "The hunters shooting guide" by Jack O'connor. In it the author encourages the reader to practice shooting, away from the bench, in various shooting positions (prone, kneeling, sitting, etc.). Doing so, I quickly realized my own limitations as a shooter. From the bench I learned that my rifle and load were very accurate and capable of taking game at well beyond 400 yds, but I wasn't - not without practice.

Your mention of practicing prone with a sling - and your 90% rule - keeping 9 of 10 shots in the kill zone reminded me of my own time spent practicing. I believe more than a few "shooters" could benefit from reading your article.

Thanks again.

Mark

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,145
Owl Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,145
Thank you Wayne for your wisdom and insight,

In the last 38 years, I've taken elk in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. I'm guessing somewhere around 22-25 animals. Mostly bulls, and a half dozen cows. All under 200 yards. Most less than 100 yards.

My father was not a hunter. I usually went with one of my best friends and his father "Steve" in northern Utah. For as many years as I new "Steve" he was able to harvest an elk every year he hunted. His "go to" rifles were either a pre WWII Remington Model 141 chambered in .35 Remington, or a Remington Model 81 in .300 Savage.

"Steve" new me. He new me well, as I had been hunting pheasants, grouse, ducks, geese etc. with him since I was 12. And I new "Steve" and respected him as a mentor. The very first thing that "Steve" taught me was that the cartridge size was not nearly as important as shot placement.

When I was 15, I bought my first center fire rifle. I had wanted a .300 WM or 7mm RM as they were all the rage in 1978. I also recall having shot a 300 WM loaded with a 220 gr bullet that really hurt when I was 14 years old. Then I rememebered what "Steve" had taught me. So, I purchased me a Ruger M77R chambered in .30-06 Sprg at a now defunct store called ZCMI in Ogden, UT. I thought that I was on TOP OF THE WORLD. If I recall, I paid $189.00 for it. It wears a weaver K4 to this day.

I'm a man of large stature. 6'2" tall and 275 lbs. I'm not recoil shy. Yes, I've taken animals with a .338 WM. I've harvested Arizona Coues Whitetail at close to 500+ yards with a 7mm RM. I've taken Mule Deer at 400+ yards in Utah and Nevada with the .30-06. And yes, they were one shot kills. But, these days, I find myself wanting to shoot at distance's less than 200 yards with a lighter rifle and less recoil.

Back to your article, and the 90 percent rule. In my opinion, you are 100% on target with your "90 Percent Rule" on a 16" target, at a target less than 200 yards, from multiple positions such as standing, kneeling, prone, off of shooting sticks, with a rifle that one can shoot well is the best advise there is. It's a better choice to shoot a rifle that one can shoot well and hit his intended target each and everytime, rather than miss or wound an animal with a rifle/cartridge that causes one to flinch and pull shots due to anticipation of heavy recoil. I'd rather take an ethical shot with a heavy 6mm bullet at a short range (less than 200 yards) knowing I could place in the "kill zone" rather than shoot one of my heavier magnums at a long distance target and hope that my shot placement is at the point I intended and risk losing a majestic animal.

I know that there will be "nay sayer's" on using a heavy 6mm bullet over a 180 gr bullet out of a 300 WM, but it's my opinion if you can't shoot it well, with an ethical shot, then don't shoot. You need to wait for a chance to put place a well placed shot into the vitals, rather than wound an Elk and take the chance of losing it.

Thanks again for the great article.


James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,930
M
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,930
Very interesting and well written article. Thanks,


Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!

They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
IC B3

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Max, as you've pointed out, all your loads are shooting tight enough for elk hunting. I had a similar experience some years ago with a .338 that shot a standard softnose best. I used it to good effect on the elk hunt, but in retrospect would have done as well with a bullet designed to drive deeper and retain more weight. You'll probably kill as many elk with one load as another in that .358. I'd choose the Partition. You rightly considered conditions. If late-season hunting will increase the chances you'll get a quartering shot, the Partition's weight and construction give it an edge. Cost is of no account, in my view. Given the other expenses incurred hunting elk, the price of a box of bullets or ammo is insignificant. To get more trigger time at lower cost, use the Speers. Good hunting!.... Wayne

Originally Posted by marshland_max
Great article thanks!

Well, I have a question for Wayne!

A friend and myself are heading out after elk this coming November(2017). We fully intend to be hunting the timber as we will be out there for third week of season. I m planning on caring a compact custom 358 Winchester I built from a Rem 700 SA.

I have been working a number of loads for it, so far the most accurate load has been a Hornady 200 gr RN interlock. Its shooting an average of 2684 FPS from my rifle. I have Chronograph nearly 100 rounds for this average now.

My rifle keeps that load under 1/2 inch consistently.

The other loads I have worked are 220 Speer and 225 Partition both at 2500 fps. Both of those loads will shoot into an 1 - 1 1/4 inch if I do my part. These are also excellent loads.

The Nosler Partition offers the the best ballistics easily of all the bullets. It's just a tad less accurate is and is easily the most expensive load to make.

The factory Hornady 200 gr Spire Point also shoots well at 2550-2600 fps. Its fairly accurate and the price equals the cost of my hand loads that are equivalent.

I also have Speer 250 Hot cores I haven't developed a load for yet on hand. I have Barnes 200 gr TTSX as well.

I really want to know if the load that is most accurate (200 grain round nose)or the factory load would also be suitable for hunting elk in challenging third week conditions? Do the benefits of the Nosler out way the other bullets? If its not what bullets may suit better?

Thank You

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Thank you for the kind words and the personal insight, Owl.
A fellow just shared some notes from one of his early mentor, who kept elk-hunting diaries. Many bulls in his group fell to the .300 Savage, some to the .32 Special.
Credit careful shooting up close! .... Wayne

Originally Posted by Owl
Thank you Wayne for your wisdom and insight,

In the last 38 years, I've taken elk in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. I'm guessing somewhere around 22-25 animals. Mostly bulls, and a half dozen cows. All under 200 yards. Most less than 100 yards.

My father was not a hunter. I usually went with one of my best friends and his father "Steve" in northern Utah. For as many years as I new "Steve" he was able to harvest an elk every year he hunted. His "go to" rifles were either a pre WWII Remington Model 141 chambered in .35 Remington, or a Remington Model 81 in .300 Savage.

"Steve" new me. He new me well, as I had been hunting pheasants, grouse, ducks, geese etc. with him since I was 12. And I new "Steve" and respected him as a mentor. The very first thing that "Steve" taught me was that the cartridge size was not nearly as important as shot placement.

When I was 15, I bought my first center fire rifle. I had wanted a .300 WM or 7mm RM as they were all the rage in 1978. I also recall having shot a 300 WM loaded with a 220 gr bullet that really hurt when I was 14 years old. Then I rememebered what "Steve" had taught me. So, I purchased me a Ruger M77R chambered in .30-06 Sprg at a now defunct store called ZCMI in Ogden, UT. I thought that I was on TOP OF THE WORLD. If I recall, I paid $189.00 for it. It wears a weaver K4 to this day.

I'm a man of large stature. 6'2" tall and 275 lbs. I'm not recoil shy. Yes, I've taken animals with a .338 WM. I've harvested Arizona Coues Whitetail at close to 500+ yards with a 7mm RM. I've taken Mule Deer at 400+ yards in Utah and Nevada with the .30-06. And yes, they were one shot kills. But, these days, I find myself wanting to shoot at distance's less than 200 yards with a lighter rifle and less recoil.

Back to your article, and the 90 percent rule. In my opinion, you are 100% on target with your "90 Percent Rule" on a 16" target, at a target less than 200 yards, from multiple positions such as standing, kneeling, prone, off of shooting sticks, with a rifle that one can shoot well is the best advise there is. It's a better choice to shoot a rifle that one can shoot well and hit his intended target each and everytime, rather than miss or wound an animal with a rifle/cartridge that causes one to flinch and pull shots due to anticipation of heavy recoil. I'd rather take an ethical shot with a heavy 6mm bullet at a short range (less than 200 yards) knowing I could place in the "kill zone" rather than shoot one of my heavier magnums at a long distance target and hope that my shot placement is at the point I intended and risk losing a majestic animal.

I know that there will be "nay sayer's" on using a heavy 6mm bullet over a 180 gr bullet out of a 300 WM, but it's my opinion if you can't shoot it well, with an ethical shot, then don't shoot. You need to wait for a chance to put place a well placed shot into the vitals, rather than wound an Elk and take the chance of losing it.

Thanks again for the great article.

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Thank you for the feedback! And good hunting! .... Wayne
Originally Posted by mcmurphrjk
Excellent article. Thanks for sharing here.

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Well put, Missouri Ed. Hunting is not shooting; a shot merely concludes a hunt. And yes, a scoped 200-yard rifle is indeed a better option than a .30-30 saddle gun if the family has wearied of Walmart hot dogs. The year before last, I'd like to have had an iron-sighted carbine for the shot; last fall, irons wouldn't have worked, and the reach of my .30-06 was most welcome!..... Wayne

Originally Posted by MissouriEd
Very interesting and well written article. Thanks,
Originally Posted by Bugger
I really liked the article as well. I agree with many of the things you wrote. I don't think I'll be taking my 32 Special or my 30-30 though, cause I don't get to hunt as much as I'd like and I need a little help (a scope and a 200 yard rifle will do). On the other hand your comments on long range shooting of elk is right on. Last year my son and I were hunting in WY. We ran across a hunter whose first words to us was my rifle can kill elk at 1,000 yards. We avoided that hunter, rather we avoided that shooter. Hunting is a lot different than shooting, IMHO.

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Bugger, I mis-applied the greeting. My apologies. If rifles were as recalcitrant as the Internet, I'd probably take up knitting.... Wayne

Originally Posted by WvZ
Well put, Missouri Ed. Hunting is not shooting; a shot merely concludes a hunt. And yes, a scoped 200-yard rifle is indeed a better option than a .30-30 saddle gun if the family has wearied of Walmart hot dogs. The year before last, I'd like to have had an iron-sighted carbine for the shot; last fall, irons wouldn't have worked, and the reach of my .30-06 was most welcome!..... Wayne

Originally Posted by MissouriEd
Very interesting and well written article. Thanks,
Originally Posted by Bugger
I really liked the article as well. I agree with many of the things you wrote. I don't think I'll be taking my 32 Special or my 30-30 though, cause I don't get to hunt as much as I'd like and I need a little help (a scope and a 200 yard rifle will do). On the other hand your comments on long range shooting of elk is right on. Last year my son and I were hunting in WY. We ran across a hunter whose first words to us was my rifle can kill elk at 1,000 yards. We avoided that hunter, rather we avoided that shooter. Hunting is a lot different than shooting, IMHO.

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Many thanks for the feedback, Mark! Yes, keeping a rifle aimed at the right spot under field conditions is far more difficult than finding a rifle that makes you smile from behind the sandbags.... Wayne

Originally Posted by gundog
Wayne,

I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for sharing your real life experiences in hunting and shooting Elk.

It seems that most hunters talk of "shooting", rather than hunting. Whether it is Deer, Elk, Moose, .. etc. The conversation is generally about the cartridge, sectional density, ballistics, tactical turrets and long distance shots. Today, rarely does one hear a hunter tell of their skill in closing the distance - rather that their rifle shoots 1/2 MOA and is deadly to 1000 yds from the bench (in a lead sled).

As a younger man, I acquired a copy of "The hunters shooting guide" by Jack O'connor. In it the author encourages the reader to practice shooting, away from the bench, in various shooting positions (prone, kneeling, sitting, etc.). Doing so, I quickly realized my own limitations as a shooter. From the bench I learned that my rifle and load were very accurate and capable of taking game at well beyond 400 yds, but I wasn't - not without practice.

Your mention of practicing prone with a sling - and your 90% rule - keeping 9 of 10 shots in the kill zone reminded me of my own time spent practicing. I believe more than a few "shooters" could benefit from reading your article.

Thanks again.

Mark

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
It's not a misprint, Hoth. Just awkward. It follows in form the title, "How Not To Shoot An Elk." You're right, it could be more elegantly or simply stated. That is: Any cartridge can fail to kill an elk. Best... Wayne


Originally Posted by Hoth
Originally Posted by WillFish
Great article. Thank-you.

I'm curious about this statement, maybe a misprint??

"You can not kill an elk with any cartridge you can name."


It would probably be better understood if written as "You can fail to kill an elk..."

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
W
WvZ Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
I'm much obliged for the feedback, Beretzs. Good hunting!... Wayne

Originally Posted by beretzs
Excellent article. I really enjoyed that. Thank you for sharing it.

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
W
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
W
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by WvZ
Any cartridge can fail to kill an elk. Best... Wayne
Yes, that makes perfectly good sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 176
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 176
"It is how hunting becomes truly sport"

Wayne as always fun article!
You and your writingings are a treasure!

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
217 members (2ndwind, 1lessdog, 257_X_50, 10gaugemag, 1911a1, 16penny, 34 invisible), 1,284 guests, and 1,186 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums80
Topics1,182,855
Posts18,310,529
Members73,663
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.059s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9082 MB (Peak: 1.0884 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-02-27 06:49:01 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS