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MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" #11869019 03/02/17
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RickBin Offline OP
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Hi Guys:

I'd like to thank Wayne van Zwoll (WvZ) for his latest exclusive article for the Campfire: HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK.

Please use this thread to ask Wayne questions about the article. I hope you find it as informative and enjoyable as I did.

Thanks Wayne!



Rick Bin
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Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11876180 03/05/17
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marshland_max Offline
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Great article thanks!

Well, I have a question for Wayne!

A friend and myself are heading out after elk this coming November(2017). We fully intend to be hunting the timber as we will be out there for third week of season. I m planning on caring a compact custom 358 Winchester I built from a Rem 700 SA.

I have been working a number of loads for it, so far the most accurate load has been a Hornady 200 gr RN interlock. Its shooting an average of 2684 FPS from my rifle. I have Chronograph nearly 100 rounds for this average now.

My rifle keeps that load under 1/2 inch consistently.

The other loads I have worked are 220 Speer and 225 Partition both at 2500 fps. Both of those loads will shoot into an 1 - 1 1/4 inch if I do my part. These are also excellent loads.

The Nosler Partition offers the the best ballistics easily of all the bullets. It's just a tad less accurate is and is easily the most expensive load to make.

The factory Hornady 200 gr Spire Point also shoots well at 2550-2600 fps. Its fairly accurate and the price equals the cost of my hand loads that are equivalent.

I also have Speer 250 Hot cores I haven't developed a load for yet on hand. I have Barnes 200 gr TTSX as well.

I really want to know if the load that is most accurate (200 grain round nose)or the factory load would also be suitable for hunting elk in challenging third week conditions? Do the benefits of the Nosler out way the other bullets? If its not what bullets may suit better?

Thank You

Last edited by marshland_max; 03/05/17.

Meat Hunters Do It For Dinner.
Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11876380 03/05/17
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mcmurphrjk Offline
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Excellent article. Thanks for sharing here.


Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.
*Marvin Simkin* L.A. Times (1992)
Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11877166 03/05/17
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Excellent article. I really enjoyed that. Thank you for sharing it.


Semper Fi
Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: marshland_max] #11877666 03/06/17
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Great article. Thank-you.

I'm curious about this statement, maybe a misprint??

"You can not kill an elk with any cartridge you can name."

Alpha

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: WillFish] #11882178 03/07/17
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Hoth Offline
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Originally Posted by WillFish
Great article. Thank-you.

I'm curious about this statement, maybe a misprint??

"You can not kill an elk with any cartridge you can name."


It would probably be better understood if written as "You can fail to kill an elk..."

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11883102 03/08/17
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I really liked the article as well. I agree with many of the things you wrote. I don't think I'll be taking my 32 Special or my 30-30 though, cause I don't get to hunt as much as I'd like and I need a little help (a scope and a 200 yard rifle will do). On the other hand your comments on long range shooting of elk is right on. Last year my son and I were hunting in WY. We ran across a hunter whose first words to us was my rifle can kill elk at 1,000 yards. We avoided that hunter, rather we avoided that shooter. Hunting is a lot different than shooting, IMHO.


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Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11883501 03/08/17
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Wayne,

I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for sharing your real life experiences in hunting and shooting Elk.

It seems that most hunters talk of "shooting", rather than hunting. Whether it is Deer, Elk, Moose, .. etc. The conversation is generally about the cartridge, sectional density, ballistics, tactical turrets and long distance shots. Today, rarely does one hear a hunter tell of their skill in closing the distance - rather that their rifle shoots 1/2 MOA and is deadly to 1000 yds from the bench (in a lead sled).

As a younger man, I acquired a copy of "The hunters shooting guide" by Jack O'connor. In it the author encourages the reader to practice shooting, away from the bench, in various shooting positions (prone, kneeling, sitting, etc.). Doing so, I quickly realized my own limitations as a shooter. From the bench I learned that my rifle and load were very accurate and capable of taking game at well beyond 400 yds, but I wasn't - not without practice.

Your mention of practicing prone with a sling - and your 90% rule - keeping 9 of 10 shots in the kill zone reminded me of my own time spent practicing. I believe more than a few "shooters" could benefit from reading your article.

Thanks again.

Mark

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11883726 03/08/17
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Thank you Wayne for your wisdom and insight,

In the last 38 years, I've taken elk in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. I'm guessing somewhere around 22-25 animals. Mostly bulls, and a half dozen cows. All under 200 yards. Most less than 100 yards.

My father was not a hunter. I usually went with one of my best friends and his father "Steve" in northern Utah. For as many years as I new "Steve" he was able to harvest an elk every year he hunted. His "go to" rifles were either a pre WWII Remington Model 141 chambered in .35 Remington, or a Remington Model 81 in .300 Savage.

"Steve" new me. He new me well, as I had been hunting pheasants, grouse, ducks, geese etc. with him since I was 12. And I new "Steve" and respected him as a mentor. The very first thing that "Steve" taught me was that the cartridge size was not nearly as important as shot placement.

When I was 15, I bought my first center fire rifle. I had wanted a .300 WM or 7mm RM as they were all the rage in 1978. I also recall having shot a 300 WM loaded with a 220 gr bullet that really hurt when I was 14 years old. Then I rememebered what "Steve" had taught me. So, I purchased me a Ruger M77R chambered in .30-06 Sprg at a now defunct store called ZCMI in Ogden, UT. I thought that I was on TOP OF THE WORLD. If I recall, I paid $189.00 for it. It wears a weaver K4 to this day.

I'm a man of large stature. 6'2" tall and 275 lbs. I'm not recoil shy. Yes, I've taken animals with a .338 WM. I've harvested Arizona Coues Whitetail at close to 500+ yards with a 7mm RM. I've taken Mule Deer at 400+ yards in Utah and Nevada with the .30-06. And yes, they were one shot kills. But, these days, I find myself wanting to shoot at distance's less than 200 yards with a lighter rifle and less recoil.

Back to your article, and the 90 percent rule. In my opinion, you are 100% on target with your "90 Percent Rule" on a 16" target, at a target less than 200 yards, from multiple positions such as standing, kneeling, prone, off of shooting sticks, with a rifle that one can shoot well is the best advise there is. It's a better choice to shoot a rifle that one can shoot well and hit his intended target each and everytime, rather than miss or wound an animal with a rifle/cartridge that causes one to flinch and pull shots due to anticipation of heavy recoil. I'd rather take an ethical shot with a heavy 6mm bullet at a short range (less than 200 yards) knowing I could place in the "kill zone" rather than shoot one of my heavier magnums at a long distance target and hope that my shot placement is at the point I intended and risk losing a majestic animal.

I know that there will be "nay sayer's" on using a heavy 6mm bullet over a 180 gr bullet out of a 300 WM, but it's my opinion if you can't shoot it well, with an ethical shot, then don't shoot. You need to wait for a chance to put place a well placed shot into the vitals, rather than wound an Elk and take the chance of losing it.

Thanks again for the great article.


James Pepper: There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum? John Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there.
Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: RickBin] #11888317 03/10/17
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MissouriEd Offline
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Very interesting and well written article. Thanks,


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They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
Bravo

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: marshland_max] #11891251 03/11/17
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Max, as you've pointed out, all your loads are shooting tight enough for elk hunting. I had a similar experience some years ago with a .338 that shot a standard softnose best. I used it to good effect on the elk hunt, but in retrospect would have done as well with a bullet designed to drive deeper and retain more weight. You'll probably kill as many elk with one load as another in that .358. I'd choose the Partition. You rightly considered conditions. If late-season hunting will increase the chances you'll get a quartering shot, the Partition's weight and construction give it an edge. Cost is of no account, in my view. Given the other expenses incurred hunting elk, the price of a box of bullets or ammo is insignificant. To get more trigger time at lower cost, use the Speers. Good hunting!.... Wayne

Originally Posted by marshland_max
Great article thanks!

Well, I have a question for Wayne!

A friend and myself are heading out after elk this coming November(2017). We fully intend to be hunting the timber as we will be out there for third week of season. I m planning on caring a compact custom 358 Winchester I built from a Rem 700 SA.

I have been working a number of loads for it, so far the most accurate load has been a Hornady 200 gr RN interlock. Its shooting an average of 2684 FPS from my rifle. I have Chronograph nearly 100 rounds for this average now.

My rifle keeps that load under 1/2 inch consistently.

The other loads I have worked are 220 Speer and 225 Partition both at 2500 fps. Both of those loads will shoot into an 1 - 1 1/4 inch if I do my part. These are also excellent loads.

The Nosler Partition offers the the best ballistics easily of all the bullets. It's just a tad less accurate is and is easily the most expensive load to make.

The factory Hornady 200 gr Spire Point also shoots well at 2550-2600 fps. Its fairly accurate and the price equals the cost of my hand loads that are equivalent.

I also have Speer 250 Hot cores I haven't developed a load for yet on hand. I have Barnes 200 gr TTSX as well.

I really want to know if the load that is most accurate (200 grain round nose)or the factory load would also be suitable for hunting elk in challenging third week conditions? Do the benefits of the Nosler out way the other bullets? If its not what bullets may suit better?

Thank You

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: Owl] #11891260 03/11/17
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Thank you for the kind words and the personal insight, Owl.
A fellow just shared some notes from one of his early mentor, who kept elk-hunting diaries. Many bulls in his group fell to the .300 Savage, some to the .32 Special.
Credit careful shooting up close! .... Wayne

Originally Posted by Owl
Thank you Wayne for your wisdom and insight,

In the last 38 years, I've taken elk in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. I'm guessing somewhere around 22-25 animals. Mostly bulls, and a half dozen cows. All under 200 yards. Most less than 100 yards.

My father was not a hunter. I usually went with one of my best friends and his father "Steve" in northern Utah. For as many years as I new "Steve" he was able to harvest an elk every year he hunted. His "go to" rifles were either a pre WWII Remington Model 141 chambered in .35 Remington, or a Remington Model 81 in .300 Savage.

"Steve" new me. He new me well, as I had been hunting pheasants, grouse, ducks, geese etc. with him since I was 12. And I new "Steve" and respected him as a mentor. The very first thing that "Steve" taught me was that the cartridge size was not nearly as important as shot placement.

When I was 15, I bought my first center fire rifle. I had wanted a .300 WM or 7mm RM as they were all the rage in 1978. I also recall having shot a 300 WM loaded with a 220 gr bullet that really hurt when I was 14 years old. Then I rememebered what "Steve" had taught me. So, I purchased me a Ruger M77R chambered in .30-06 Sprg at a now defunct store called ZCMI in Ogden, UT. I thought that I was on TOP OF THE WORLD. If I recall, I paid $189.00 for it. It wears a weaver K4 to this day.

I'm a man of large stature. 6'2" tall and 275 lbs. I'm not recoil shy. Yes, I've taken animals with a .338 WM. I've harvested Arizona Coues Whitetail at close to 500+ yards with a 7mm RM. I've taken Mule Deer at 400+ yards in Utah and Nevada with the .30-06. And yes, they were one shot kills. But, these days, I find myself wanting to shoot at distance's less than 200 yards with a lighter rifle and less recoil.

Back to your article, and the 90 percent rule. In my opinion, you are 100% on target with your "90 Percent Rule" on a 16" target, at a target less than 200 yards, from multiple positions such as standing, kneeling, prone, off of shooting sticks, with a rifle that one can shoot well is the best advise there is. It's a better choice to shoot a rifle that one can shoot well and hit his intended target each and everytime, rather than miss or wound an animal with a rifle/cartridge that causes one to flinch and pull shots due to anticipation of heavy recoil. I'd rather take an ethical shot with a heavy 6mm bullet at a short range (less than 200 yards) knowing I could place in the "kill zone" rather than shoot one of my heavier magnums at a long distance target and hope that my shot placement is at the point I intended and risk losing a majestic animal.

I know that there will be "nay sayer's" on using a heavy 6mm bullet over a 180 gr bullet out of a 300 WM, but it's my opinion if you can't shoot it well, with an ethical shot, then don't shoot. You need to wait for a chance to put place a well placed shot into the vitals, rather than wound an Elk and take the chance of losing it.

Thanks again for the great article.

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: mcmurphrjk] #11891267 03/11/17
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Thank you for the feedback! And good hunting! .... Wayne
Originally Posted by mcmurphrjk
Excellent article. Thanks for sharing here.

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: Bugger] #11891277 03/11/17
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Well put, Missouri Ed. Hunting is not shooting; a shot merely concludes a hunt. And yes, a scoped 200-yard rifle is indeed a better option than a .30-30 saddle gun if the family has wearied of Walmart hot dogs. The year before last, I'd like to have had an iron-sighted carbine for the shot; last fall, irons wouldn't have worked, and the reach of my .30-06 was most welcome!..... Wayne

Originally Posted by MissouriEd
Very interesting and well written article. Thanks,
Originally Posted by Bugger
I really liked the article as well. I agree with many of the things you wrote. I don't think I'll be taking my 32 Special or my 30-30 though, cause I don't get to hunt as much as I'd like and I need a little help (a scope and a 200 yard rifle will do). On the other hand your comments on long range shooting of elk is right on. Last year my son and I were hunting in WY. We ran across a hunter whose first words to us was my rifle can kill elk at 1,000 yards. We avoided that hunter, rather we avoided that shooter. Hunting is a lot different than shooting, IMHO.

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: WvZ] #11891284 03/11/17
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Bugger, I mis-applied the greeting. My apologies. If rifles were as recalcitrant as the Internet, I'd probably take up knitting.... Wayne

Originally Posted by WvZ
Well put, Missouri Ed. Hunting is not shooting; a shot merely concludes a hunt. And yes, a scoped 200-yard rifle is indeed a better option than a .30-30 saddle gun if the family has wearied of Walmart hot dogs. The year before last, I'd like to have had an iron-sighted carbine for the shot; last fall, irons wouldn't have worked, and the reach of my .30-06 was most welcome!..... Wayne

Originally Posted by MissouriEd
Very interesting and well written article. Thanks,
Originally Posted by Bugger
I really liked the article as well. I agree with many of the things you wrote. I don't think I'll be taking my 32 Special or my 30-30 though, cause I don't get to hunt as much as I'd like and I need a little help (a scope and a 200 yard rifle will do). On the other hand your comments on long range shooting of elk is right on. Last year my son and I were hunting in WY. We ran across a hunter whose first words to us was my rifle can kill elk at 1,000 yards. We avoided that hunter, rather we avoided that shooter. Hunting is a lot different than shooting, IMHO.

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: gundog] #11891290 03/11/17
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Many thanks for the feedback, Mark! Yes, keeping a rifle aimed at the right spot under field conditions is far more difficult than finding a rifle that makes you smile from behind the sandbags.... Wayne

Originally Posted by gundog
Wayne,

I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for sharing your real life experiences in hunting and shooting Elk.

It seems that most hunters talk of "shooting", rather than hunting. Whether it is Deer, Elk, Moose, .. etc. The conversation is generally about the cartridge, sectional density, ballistics, tactical turrets and long distance shots. Today, rarely does one hear a hunter tell of their skill in closing the distance - rather that their rifle shoots 1/2 MOA and is deadly to 1000 yds from the bench (in a lead sled).

As a younger man, I acquired a copy of "The hunters shooting guide" by Jack O'connor. In it the author encourages the reader to practice shooting, away from the bench, in various shooting positions (prone, kneeling, sitting, etc.). Doing so, I quickly realized my own limitations as a shooter. From the bench I learned that my rifle and load were very accurate and capable of taking game at well beyond 400 yds, but I wasn't - not without practice.

Your mention of practicing prone with a sling - and your 90% rule - keeping 9 of 10 shots in the kill zone reminded me of my own time spent practicing. I believe more than a few "shooters" could benefit from reading your article.

Thanks again.

Mark

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: Hoth] #11891306 03/11/17
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It's not a misprint, Hoth. Just awkward. It follows in form the title, "How Not To Shoot An Elk." You're right, it could be more elegantly or simply stated. That is: Any cartridge can fail to kill an elk. Best... Wayne


Originally Posted by Hoth
Originally Posted by WillFish
Great article. Thank-you.

I'm curious about this statement, maybe a misprint??

"You can not kill an elk with any cartridge you can name."


It would probably be better understood if written as "You can fail to kill an elk..."

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: beretzs] #11891310 03/11/17
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I'm much obliged for the feedback, Beretzs. Good hunting!... Wayne

Originally Posted by beretzs
Excellent article. I really enjoyed that. Thank you for sharing it.

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: WvZ] #11891555 03/11/17
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Originally Posted by WvZ
Any cartridge can fail to kill an elk. Best... Wayne
Yes, that makes perfectly good sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

Re: MARCH: Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "HOW NOT TO SHOOT AN ELK" [Re: WvZ] #11914506 03/21/17
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"It is how hunting becomes truly sport"

Wayne as always fun article!
You and your writingings are a treasure!

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