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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Rock Chuck,

So that's what good guides do!

I've guided and been guided, and been around plenty of guided hunters. Most guides do try to get within sure range, but some clients don't want to get close, partly due to the recent long-range trend. When I talked to that Colorado elk outfitter, one of his recent elk clients told the guide he was good out to 600 yards. First, the guy completely missed one elk at a little under 500, then wounded another at around 400, which they had to chase around for a while and shoot some more. That was with a 7mm Remington Magnum.

Then there are the clients who can't shoot worth a damn even at 100 yards. About 15 years ago I went on a multi-species horseback hunt in British Columbia, and one of the other guys in camp couldn't keep shots from his brand-new .300 Winchester Magnum in a 1-foot circle at 100 yards, from a benchrest. He'd bought the .300 rather than bring his long-time hunting rifle, a .280, because he was hunting elk and moose and thought the .280 wouldn't be enough. His guide was not happy with the benchrest results, so tried get the client as close as possible to a moose, elk and caribou, but the clients still took around 20 shots to kill the three animals.

Then there are the clients who shoot fine at the scope-checking target but get excited in the field. A long-time brown bear guide in Alaska was very happy when one of his clients shot the scope-check, but the guy absolutely fell apart when they stalked within "sure" range of a big bear. He wounded it and the guide had to go into the brush and shoot the charging bear--and no, he did not allow the client to accompany him. But the same guide has had a number of clients make clean kills on big bears with .270's, 7mm Remington Magnums and .30-06's. He's happy to take them, because they usually shoot well.

His experience, and that of other long-time guides and outfitters I've known, plus my own guiding experience, is that clients almost never wound animals by being under-gunned, whether they're hunting deer, elk, moose or brown bears. Instead over 90% of the time the problem is being over-gunned to the point of flinching. This apparently never happens to Campfire members, but the consensus is that somewhere around the .300 magnum level the majority of guided clients start flinching. One close outfitter friend, who's been guiding mule deer hunters in eastern Montana for over 40 years, says only 20% of his clients who bring a .300 magnum of some sort can cleanly kill deer at 200 yards.

Oh, and the Colorado elk outfitter said one guy who brought a .257 Weatherby Magnum made a clean kill at 400 yards. That outfitter's also had far more problems with guys shooting magnum cartridges from .300 up than people who brought rifles chambered for cartridges like the .270 Winchester.

My general experience is that outfitters who have a "cartridge" minimum generally don't know much about bullets. Among my acquaintances (I can't really call them friends) is a Colorado couple who've been guiding elk hunters on private land for over 30 years. Their minimum is the 7mm Remington Magnum, apparently because that's what both husband and wife shoot. They won't allow .270's in their camp. If you try to discuss bullets with them, they start talking bullet weights rather than brands.

Have encountered the same thing in Texas a number of times, where aoudad and nilgai outfitters strongly suggest a minimum of .300 magnum, or even .338's or .375's. Yet on a nilgai hunt some years ago, when the .270 WSM was brand-new, a party of 15 hunters used 140-grain Fail Safes to take 15 bulls and 15 cows. By the end of the hunt the guides and outfitter were declaring the .270 WSM one of the best nilgai cartridges they'd ever seen. Some this was due to good shooting, some to the bullets, and some to the guides--but when 30 nilgai are taken, some of the shots aren't going to be on unalarmed animals standing perfectly broadside inside 200 yards. And neither are all shots when guiding clients to 30 elk a year in Colorado.



My son guided some elk hunts in Wyoming his first year out of school. When I visited with him he told me about a hunter who showed up with a 30-378 Weatherby Mag, said it was one of the most beautiful and impressive rifles he had ever seen and he intended on getting one. I asked, how well did the rifle kill the elk? My sons reply, the man shot at 3 different elk and couldn't hit any of them. I then asked, do you by chance remember the quickest kill of the hunt and what cartridge was being used? His reply, there was a man useing a 6.5X55 swede who dropped his elk in its tracks and the elk was dead. I said, don't forget that!


Trystan


Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
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I worked up a load for deer/elk for a girlfriend's .270 Win (Mountain Ascent) using a 130gr TTSX. That rifle/load combination is awesome. Here's a 6-shot group from that rifle/load.

[Linked Image] [/quote]

But..... you missed! smile


You can probably fix that.

Nice group!

Last edited by las; 05/06/17.

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I have hunted elk for about thirty years now; not every year but intermittently. I started in the late 80's just before I got enamored of the 340 Wby due to a Ross Seyfried article on it in Guns and Ammo IIRC in the early nineties. In a couple of years a Rem 700 I had went through a couple interactions from a 270 to 7mm Rem Mag to 338 and finally to the 340.

My first couple of elk hunts were without punching tags and then I started to kill bills, about 11 and several cows to this point. While the majority were killed with the 340, I killed one with a 45-70; another with a 45 Colt and one with a 30-06.

I really came to appreciate not only the 340 as a cartridge but equally so the oft retooled 700 in a Brown Prec Classic stock that I believed mitigated recoil very well and that I could shoot. There is no doubt the 340 with 250-grain bullets, 225-gr NP's, and later the Barnes 210-gr TSX when placed well left no doubt as to effect. It's a masterful cartridge for large, soft-skinned big game but needs first to be mastered itself. Even at only 8.5 lbs scoped it began to get heavy.

Last year I hunted the Wind River Range with a 300 Wby and didn't get a shot. It seemed too heavy to me also.

Now, I'm in the paring down stage and while I have an elk hunt planned for 2018, I expect it will be my last... but who knows. Anyway, I will be carrying a 6.25 lb (scoped) 284 (sort of a short 270) with 140-ft TTSX's or some weight AB's or NP's. Which ever way, I have no reservations about its capability on a bull.

Now if I could just get somebody to carry some of my other stuff for me..


Last edited by George_De_Vries_3rd; 05/06/17. Reason: Icon
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I agree about the 6.5 x 55 140 grain .264 caliber, being a very impressive round. Which would make me believe the 150 grain .277 bullet powered by a 30 03 case.....I.E. a 270 Winchester would be even more impressive. Except for the minutia problems of a " long action". I have recently got some 270 s and certainley enjoy shooting them.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
high_country,

Good job!

Was it a Roberts or Weatherby? The elk my wife "flopped" with a 100 TTSX in 2014 was taken with a Roberts, muzzle velocity 3150 fps. I was expecting the cow to go 30-50 yards before falling, but instead it dropped at the shot. It was angling-away, and after the bullet entered the rear of the right ribs it went through both lungs, ticking the underside of the spinal column before ending up in the far shoulder.

Might also note that out friend MCMXI hasn't logged on again since March 13th. Evidently he ran out of new "evidence" of the effectiveness of his .375 H&H.


MCMXI's writing style is very similar to LARRY ROOT.

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I wonder if mcmxi has been reading elmer keith stories by the fireplace. Elmer was convinced that 32 caliber was a elk minimum. Jack oconner asked simple questions like, did 270 bullets bounce off elk like hail off a tin roof or did they pop like fireworks or roman candles. Jack also stated that everytime he heard of a 270 failure, when he ran it down, either the shot was poorly placed, or a complete miss. This guy mcmxi must be of elmer keith's bloodline....!


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Originally Posted by 338Rem
Boys, boys, boys. As far as magnum rifles go, here is a simple little axiom for y'all.

"If bigger was better, Miss America would weigh 400 pounds"

You should learn it and listen to Brad, Mule Deer, et al.


If bigger was better, Miss America would be far heavier than 400 pounds.

Conversely, if smaller was better we'd all be shooting needles.

The critical factor is what happens after impact, not diameter or even weight in and of themselves.


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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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You got it right Coyote Hunter

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A fellow I knew when we lived in Colorado twenty years ago shot most elk with a 6mm Gibbs. Used 75 grain hollow points (which was an illegal bullet in that State for elk), shot them in the lungs and waited for them to die. He was a three State hunter and during the time I knew him he usually got three elk a year. His was a neurosurgeon and probably knew the anatomy of elk too, and only took shots that he was able to place where he wanted them.

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I used a .260 with 140 grin bullet. Bang-flop.

I've also taken upwards of 75 caribou, over 20 moose, and assorted others, with a variety of bullet weights and calibers.

Placement is everytihng, flavors not so much.

Last edited by las; 05/31/17.

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Neurosurgeon's have lots of $ they have time & $ to be able to pick a shot🤣


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Las if placement is all use a 22 shot and save $.🤣


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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
Las if placement is all use a 22 shot and save $.🤣



Laughing because it demonstrates a truth by examining the extreme.

All other things being equal, placement is the most important thing. .22 shot in the ear at muzzle contact range MIGHT do the trick.

But the other things are never equal and the other things are important. A bullet that pencils through without expansion may not kill where an expanding bullet with the same placement would.


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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
high_country,

Good job!

Was it a Roberts or Weatherby? The elk my wife "flopped" with a 100 TTSX in 2014 was taken with a Roberts, muzzle velocity 3150 fps. I was expecting the cow to go 30-50 yards before falling, but instead it dropped at the shot. It was angling-away, and after the bullet entered the rear of the right ribs it went through both lungs, ticking the underside of the spinal column before ending up in the far shoulder.

Might also note that out friend MCMXI hasn't logged on again since March 13th. Evidently he ran out of new "evidence" of the effectiveness of his .375 H&H.


MCMXI's writing style is very similar to LARRY ROOT.


I'm not so sure. The recitation of credentials, jobs and the like is reminiscent of Lee24.

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Last 2 Elk I got 1 cow and 1 bull with my 270 I used a 150gr Nosler Partition, I didn,t get as much
expansion as I,d like. Think I,ll use 140gr Accubonds for the next 2 years.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
If I had to anchor bull on the spot I would use the high shoulder shot regardless if cartridge.


I like this shot myself, and have used it on the 'edges of those bad holes" to South Africa/Namibia/Texas Exotics where if I lost the animal I still paid for it! Both saved my "bacon" many times, ha. Some say 'wait for the perfect shot"....I tend to use a bullet/load that gives me an edge on bone breaking/hard angle shots when it comes to the above scenarios. Distance travelled/money spent + trophy fees= how bad do I want him? Yes, I've passed many opportunities just because I didn't want to shoot or didn't feel confident of the shot. Other times, I poured it on him! ha. Lots of fun either way.

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PS- I've only killed three elk, all cows. I used the 30-06/180 Hornady LM factory load; 375 H&H/300 SBT handload going 2600; and the 338/185XLC handload. All died, and quickly even though two took a finishing round ( the '06/375) just because I wanted to, not needed to. I felt the 338/185 load made the quickest kill...by 3 seconds, maybe. ha. Of the big guns I've shot other game with, the one rifle that made big holes with less rifle weight amd recoil was a Mod 700 Classic Whelen rechambered to 35 Ackley Improved and Barnes 250X/200X/310 Woodleigh. If I draw another cow tag, I will try one of three.....My BAR .270, Mod 700 7x57 or Ruger 77 338 Federal.
I will add that if one has a rifle/load that will shoot completely through a big hogs shoulders or from a hard angle...you can rest assured it WILL work just fine on elk, size notwithstanding. Soft, easy opening deer bullets won't do that on a hog 90% of the time, nor on elk. Heavy cup/core for caliber ( Elmer had some good ideas) or Premiums (Jack OC did too) will both "usually" do it...this is just MY 2 cents worth of Empirical Data/Observation. I have zero degrees. Just a Preacher who doesn't like to fish that much, doesn't drink or run around on his wife of 44 yrs but who has been blessed enough to hunt/shoot/handload for the past 56yrs ( since I was 8) I was always curious as to "what rifle/shotgun/load/distance/reaction, etc and what did the bullet wound look like, even as a kid with squirrels/22s! ha. I don't care what someone uses/doesn't use in the game fields as long as (a) they don't shoot ME and (b) they leave me alone. lol

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270 Win 140 gr InterLock® SP American Whitetail. This bullit in 130 and 150gr have killed more Deer and Elk than all other Hornady bullits put together. The 140 gr IMO is the best all around bullit Hornady has in 270 cal.

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130 TTSX

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Originally Posted by lynntelk
I plan on using a 140 grain Swift A frame on a late September elk hunt in a pre-64 Model 70 featherweight. I'm not worried with either the bullet or the rifle.


413 Measured yards.
[Linked Image]

It came with ~3' of backstrap per side. That's a metal yardstick for reference.
[Linked Image]

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