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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by Starman


Re; waterproof Gortex shells, are a double edged sword, they are less breathable than pertex so can more easily contain/ trap perspiration moisture, reducing the efficiency of down...but even the most breathable shell materials can’t entirely stop the dampening effect of such internal moisture passing across the surface of down.



No maker has offered a "waterproof" goretex shell for about 25 years...


When you think of GTX you normally think of various other competing technology laminates in the same technical performance context.
My words still correctly apply to any pre-existing GTX-WP s/bag...and to the sequential mind -also to any past or present non-GTX
waterproof-breathable-laminate shell construction s/bag...be it Exped, Mountain Hardware, etc



Calling what is commonly referred to as WPB shells (waterproof breathable) "Goretex" is like referring to all wide-body planes as "Boeing 747's." The 747 may have been the first, but it's not the only, just as Goretex may have been the first WPB PTFE laminate, but it's not the only player. Calling all WPB shells on sleeping bags "Goretex" is also ironic, since no sleeping bags shells are made with WPB Gore products any longer.

Also, you're confused if you think Pertex is a monolith fabric that does not include WPB fabrics (which you mistakenly refer to as "Goretex"). Pertex makes somewhere around 9 different shell fabrics, 3 of which are WPB laminates like traditional Goretex.

And, of course, the Goretex Co. makes all sorts of fabrics, some of which are WPB, some of which are not. Also, there are a dizzying variety of proprietary and non-proprietary WPB fabrics anymore. That's why they're given the moniker WPB to refer to them as a whole (not "Goretex").

As to WPB shells on sleeping bags, I got my first actual Goretex shelled bag in 1982 (I got my first Goretex Jacket in 1978). It was a Colorado made Marmot Mountaineering bag that I used for ten years. In 1992 I got a Western Mountaineering bag with an actual Goretex WPB shell that I used until 1998.

What I found about Goretex shells, and what Goretex subsequently found, is that a WPB shells can create a slightly "clammy" feeling in the bag, and that in extreme cold may actually fight against the bags "interior climate" by not allowing moisture to exit rapidly enough overnight, allowing it to freeze in the outer layer of down, thus degrading the bags insulation. Of course, the same can happen with any down bag (and I've had it happen) which is why I would always use a VBL liner in a down bag in extreme cold, whether it has a WPB shell or not.

There are many circumstances where a WPB shell on a down bag makes sense for extreme conditions accompanied by wind/dripping water/frost/condensation. I'd just make sure I use a VBL. I personally wouldn't use a WPB shelled bag in conditions above an arbitrary 10*, and to me, they're at their best below zero.

Back to actual WPB Gore sleeping bag shells, Goretex replaced free of charge my Western Mountaineering bag because the Gore laminate started to delaminate in the hood because of hair oils. Gore must have had enough problems, because they stopped warrantying its WPB laminates on down bags sometime in the 90's. That's what they created GWS (Goretex Windstopper) for. GWS is the only Gore product now offered on sleeping bags (to my knowledge). It's not "waterproof" but is highly water resistant. I think it's a great compromise for a truly cold weather bag. Gore replaced my delaminating WM "Dakota" Goretex model with a WM Antelope with a GWS (windstopper) shell. It was a great bag, and I used it until I got a WM Versalite. The GWS, while more breathable than normal Goretex, was still not breathable enough for my liking and limited the bags temp range. GWS also adds a fair bit of weight to a bag.

Only a few bags have actual WPB shells anymore, none of which are Goretex. One is Pertex "Shield", another is a Mountain Hardwear's proprietary fabric called "Dry Q Elite."

So that's the long way of saying calling a Pertex Shield bag or Dry Q Elite bag "Goretex" is a misnomer...




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After researching and looking at bags I have a question it's hard to find a 0 degree synthetic bag. But 20 degree are plentiful. I will be using a big Agnes q core pad. If I wear a thermal layer inside bag will a 20 degree bag be sufficient

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I lam looking at a mountain hardwear lamina 20 long as I am 6 ft 3

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I am also interested in a good used bag if anyone has one for sale

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I have a a 0° synthetic bag, 2 actually. All I can say is that if you are buying it for backpacking do yourself a favor and spend the money on a down bag

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Side sleeper here as well. I went with a Montbell super spiral design bag (15f - for October in Colorado) a few years back. It "stretches" better than any bag I've seen personally, so makes it more comfortable for me.

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REI has it's 20% off sale right now... here's one of the better values out there right now w/ 20% off:

https://www.rei.com/product/110922/...712&gclid=CLD20_r28dICFQGmaQodmoYF4g

Many of the big retailers are doing 20% off right now...

Some screaming bag deals at Moontrail:

http://www.moontrail.com/home.php?cat=493


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Originally Posted by Brad
REI has it's 20% off sale right now... here's one of the better values out there right now w/ 20% off:

https://www.rei.com/product/110922/...712&gclid=CLD20_r28dICFQGmaQodmoYF4g



I have that REI bag - its solid. I must have gotten mine at a steal - $179 new last year.


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Bill, I'd never actually laid hands on the REI Magma, so stopped into REI this morning and handled one... impressive to say the least! I'd put it ahead of Marmot's lineup of upper end bags like the Helium... loftier, better finished IMO. It's a lot of bag for its retail price, let alone the sale price, and yours is even better.


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Originally Posted by slingblade
After researching and looking at bags I have a question it's hard to find a 0 degree synthetic bag. But 20 degree are plentiful. I will be using a big Agnes q core pad. If I wear a thermal layer inside bag will a 20 degree bag be sufficient


do you sleep on the cold side or the warm side?

most EN ratings already include midweight thermals; obviously adding a puffy jacket (and even pants) along w/ booties and a warm hat/balaclava will push the bag further

having said that, if you are going to err, I would err a little on the cautious side on what temp rating to go with

see if there is a snotel site near where you are hunting (and close to the same elevation) and you can get a good idea of what temps to expect

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I have a cold weather Gore Windstopper Bag, sort of a semi custom job, ironically made by the same people that made the old marmot bags in Grand Junction. It works very well, but is on the big / heavy side for most stuff. Most of the time, I pack a good solid 20 degree bag. I had been using a Feathered Friends Flickr , but recently got a semi custom Nunatak bag that on it's first outing worked really really well. I'd recommend a good 15 -20 degree bag, and there is nothing wrong with going lower in temp rating. I don't really care for the Marmot Helium, the zipper gets stuck way to often for my liking and the draft collar is non existent. Fix those two items and it would be a great bag. The FF and Nunatak both have center zips that are essentially snag free, which is certainly nice in the middle of the night, if needed and good draft collars.


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I camp in the vicinity of 10k' and use a 15*. It works. It's an old Kelty. Past due for an upgrade.

Edit: at that price, I'll have to try the magma. If my CO draw goes as planned I may be on a DIY hunt in late Oct in CO. Could be cold, and I'll want to keep the pack as light as possible.

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If you are going to be at high elevations, plan for it to be cold.

I backpack hunted in September in Colorado last year. I was camping at 10,000' and I used a +4F bag (Kelty Cosmic 4). I wasn't cold at around 28-35 degrees but I wasn't super warm either. I get cold easily, though, when I am not moving. If I was going in October, I'd have a sub-zero bag with me.

I have not read the whole thread but you obviously have a decision to make on insulation material. Down is obviously more compressible but the synthetic is warmer when damp. I have a North Face Inferno -20F down bag that I use in subfreezing backpack hunts in the North East and it gets damp and icy from condensation after a couple nights. On longer trips, I deal with the weight of one of my synthetic bags. Moisture is probably less of an issue out west though.

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The MH 15° down bags are great - I'd be taking a hard look at the magma and phantom on that moontrail link.

I've started taking a UL quilt with on known cold trips (Montana in November at 8000') - akin to a kifaru woobie but by someone else. That will greatly extend bag range, and it's a good way to keep your boots thawed out overnight...

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Big fan of Siera Design, Montbell. I've had 3 REI bags, 45*, 30*, 15*. Froze my ass off in all three. I sleep hot in my SD's and Montbells at same temps. Almost too warm. JME


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