Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters bear gun?

You guys need to get out and do something rather than talk useless minutia ....if a brown bear charged you, you'd likely crap your pants miss the shot and get eaten,so really doesn't matter what your rifle is chambered in....the end
Now go enjoy the spring weather

Lol true.

Kinda like a skunk spray...if I schit myself maybe the bear will not be interested?

My question isn't so much about bears as it is the difference in real life between all the bc and bullet weight and diameter and energy numbers and etc that we get fed every day.

mjbgalt;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this Palm Sunday finds you warm and well.

I'll begin with the statement that I have personally never shot a grizzly but do all of my hunting on known travel corridors for them. That said, in 34 years of hiking and hunting on the mountains behind our house I haven't seen one yet - though neighbors and my hunting partner have.

A very good friend of mine used to guide for both black bears and coastal grizzly in northern BC and has been present when several dozen bears have been killed. Other hunting friends have killed grizzlies and have related to me how the bullet performance of their choice worked.

So sorry for the long preamble there, but - the friend who guided used a .375 H&H with either Partitions or some of the very first X bullets I'd ever seen. His boss used a .338 with Partitions - in my collection of recovered bullets is single example of the only .338 250gr Partition my buddy ever found in a grizzly by the way.

Anyway he said he never felt there was a significant difference between the .338 and .375 when bullets of equal toughness were used. He - and a few other folks who've been there and done that more than me - had good things to say about the 200gr Partition in .308" too.

Lastly, we're blessed with a nice long season here in southern BC for a variety of big game - most of 3 months truly. Once the 6 point elk season ends for me in early October I park my "heavy" rifle - a .308 Norma loaded with 168gr TSX and carry a Swede loaded with 120gr TTSX for the duration.

Based upon shooting deer sized animals with both rifles, I believe I would come out on top if push came to shove with a bear that refused to listen to reason. If I was purposely hunting grizzly however, there is no question I'd take the Norma over the Swede.

I've re-read this and am not sure it gives you any insight whatsoever, so I'll apologize if it doesn't and wish a Happy Easter to you and yours.

Dwayne

On bears (and any other game I am aware of) the differences in bullet weight, diameter and energy mean very little when compared with Bullet construction and SHOT PLACEMENT !

"On bears (and any other game I am aware of) the differences in bullet weight, diameter and energy mean very little when compared with Bullet construction and SHOT PLACEMENT !"

This one sentence sums it up better than many chapters of tripe written over and over and over.
Thank you Phil!

My take is that ballisticly, bigger is better, but 98% of the equation falls to the marksman and 2% to what he shoots.

So if a gun is too large to be fast handling, and if it kicks too hard to be shot well by the owner, and if the ammo is to costly to be fired a lot in practice. (all real world considerations) you are better off going back to a smaller rifle or handgun that you can become a real expert with.

If you can hit running jack rabbits with a 458 Winchester 8 out of 10 times you'd probably be better off (some anyway) with a 458 over a 6.5X55. But if you can hit with the 6.5 and you can't with a larger gun, leave the big gun home.

A smaller gun with a good bullet is going to work a lot better than a miss with anything, and a poor hit with anything shy of an RPG is probably going to be worse than a clean miss.

Can we make some general agreements such as, given the same or close, energy levels, the bigger diameter is better, or weight trumps that, or SD is more important or?

I have never had anyone explain how this stuff equates to real world experiences. Forget bears, just used as a worst case example. I get it, holes in vitals count most. But why are people throwing out bc and SD and energy and etc?

"But why are people throwing out bc and SD and energy and etc?"

Trowing out = trowing away?

Because BC and SD are nearly worthless when if comes to killing game. SD with proper construction is a good thing, but SD by itself means nothing. Some bullets with super good SDs break into pieces when they hit.

The 3 most noteworthy killing guns I have ever killed BIG game with are the 404 Jeffery, the 375H&H and a 62 cal flintlock shooting balls.

All of them are "poor" in comparison to most of the new "long range" super slick bullets being spoon fed to us by the gun rags. And the big round balls are "super poor".

But all of them kill VERY well, and just to keep it 100% clear, on animals up to American Buffalo and Moose, the one of the 3 that hits them hardest and puts them down fastest is the one that fires .605" diameter lead balls. The worst BC and SD you can fire.

But the ability to overcome air resistance is not a factor on bears at 100 yards and closer.

Resistance in air is also resistance in meat and that means energy transfer. I have shot my 62 cal flintlock through both upper leg bones on a large bull moose and had it break both bones, exit the moose and hit the trees behind.

What.........that's not good enough?

For what ------------ and who?

You want to stop a charging dangerous animal, you need something big. It may still run you over dead unlike the movies where animals magically drop or fall out of the air.
Really, it's a case of "if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen". If you want to play around in brown bear country learn to shoot a stopping round. Can't handle recoil? - stay out of the kitchen, you've got no business there and can't "justify" carrying something lighter no matter how you try. The perfect shot isn't going to happen when an adrenaline charged bear is running towards your not so calm self.

The biggest trouble with the 'shot placement is "98%"' argument is that "98%" of people who come into bear territory to pursue them or other things are unfamiliar with the conditions under which they will be shooting and often find some challenges in doing the 98% thing. While 'more' certainly doesn't give one the freedom to simply 'hit fur', and energy alone is hardly a good figure on which to base killing effect, there is something to the mass/momentum/energy/frontal area which certainly gives an edge to 'more'.

You have to hit them in the right spot - PERIOD !
If you gut shoot animal with a 460 Wby, a 30-06 or 223 they are likely to run just as far. If there is a difference it is minimal and statistically insignificant.

I will agree that bullet diameter, weight and velocity do make some difference ( which is why I prefer my 458 as a backup rifle ) but it is not as much as most folks believe and certainly not in direct liner proportions.

You know, there's a guy posting on this thread who does it professionally and stopped one a while back with a 9 mm pistol.

But, it's the Fire; opinions abound.

Just because hunters seek Phil out and pay good money for his services and guidance doesn't mean that "Fire opinions" aren't very important. At least here on the Fire...

Back to the 9mm handgun. Bullet placement, the right bullet and EXPERIENCE...

All three are important, not necessarily in that order...

DF

LOL, I was thinking the same. Good placement on a charging bear would be tough if you hadn't seen it a time or two. No matter how good you are with the pistol.

Even Phil was a rookie at one time, there is only one way to get experience

One can forge ahead, learn from the school of hard knocks or benefit from the experience of others who aren't rookies. Usually, it's a combo of both.

DF

I don't doubt it, but a 9mm would certainly not be my first choice for a handgun to carry in brown bear country.

I have to say it's amazing how popular threads are that discuss guns used for bears, whether for hunting or self defense. Seems like a sure fire way to get a thread with pages of responses.

Luckily, we have Phil to set the record straight when these threads start to veer out into improbability.

A 9mm wouldn't be Phil's first choice either, as I know from talking about it with him when we got together in February at the SCI convention. But he'd thoroughly tested the ammo in "media" and practiced a lot with the handgun.

Also personally know how cool he is in the presence of a very close and possibly excited bear. Eileen and I visited Phil and the rest of the family in 2008 for some fishing and ptarmigan hunting. We were fishing one day along a smaller stream and all of a sudden a good-sized bear came running downstream about 50 yards above us, followed closely by a nitwit with a point-and-shoot camera.

The bear dove into the brush 50 yards above us, then emerged from the brush about 15 FEET from me and Phil. I did get a very nice photo with my point-and-shoot camera, then held very still as Phil unholstered both his pepper spray and a revolver. As I recall it was a .357 Magnum but might be wrong.

The bear stood looking off toward the right, and we stood very still. As it turned out Phil was waiting to see if it faced right at us, because at that point, he said, they've made up their mind to charge. Instead the bear looked at us sideways, out of the corners of its eyes, and eventually decided to turn back into the brush.

Will also note that Phil has also stopped more than one charging, wounded-by-client bear with a .30-06, a cartridge most of the "experts" on this thread wouldn't even choose for hunting brown bears, let alone as a back-up rifle. The .30-06 isn't his first choice there, either, but it has worked every time.

If i get the chance to go to bear country i have a 35 Whelen that i put together.
That said i would not feel under gunned with my 7X57 or my 270 loaded with the right bullets.

By the way the 35 just loves the 200 grain barnes X bullet and the 7x57 does some good shooting with the same type bullet,just have not had the chance to try them in the 270.

No argument on that. The point I was trying to make is that the right spot is just a bit bigger and/or easier to choose when you have a bit more. And more than a few folks seem to run into some difficulty in finding the "right spot" when hunting bears for some reason. A well handled 223 is just as lethal as a 30-06 if it is directed correctly (with great precision). Lethal shot choices increase somewhat with the latter however. But your point about incorrectly thinking a poorly placed big/high-energy shot will have the desired outcome is spot on.

I'd still be toting my M-70 .375 H&H...

Why not...??

DF