Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 9mm vs. .40s&w

i was youtubing today and ran across paul harrell. He did a comparison on 9mm vs. 40 using a variety of media, and discussing the fbi change to 9mm.

They are actually both pretty close to each other, but it still goes to the fat bullet in some situations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0

It is my understanding from speaking with a few people at SHOT that the FBI is using a custom designed 9mm load. Not something that is currently on the shelf. I was told lots of factors went into their decision including that many of their agents are not gun people and tend of have smaller statues and weaker physiques. Hit ratios mattered too and they found in their records, for their agents, that using a lighter round provided more hits on the target.

Did anyone read the Battle of Barrington in the latest NRA magazine.

few years ago i ran across a long time employee of the federal bureau of confusion as he called it, and we had a long conversation mostly about the border.
But he had a little semiauto in a ankle holster he was showing me. The 9mm ammo was about 30% above sammi specs on a level with .357sig.i finally managed to get some from a place in texas.
He also mentioned teaching firearms courses at quantico and having to explain to students what he meant when he said wheelgun.

Most law enforcement personnel paid by the states, cities and counties are not gun guys either. The shoot as often as their agencies qualify every year and not a round more.

Agency heads could save themselves some grief by mandating every gun-toter had to qualify on a 100 round qualification course at the very least 4 times a year AND the regular qualifications. After several years officer involved shootings would feature less hurt or killed officers and more dead goblins.

But, it'll never happen because the bean counters aren't out there getting shot at, stabbed, bitten, hit, kicked and spit on on a daily basis.

Does anybody honestly believe that the .40 kills more quicker than the 9mm?

All things being equal?




Dave

No, they're not using some special mystery round. Good grief.

And "many" FBI agents aren't small and weak. Double good grief.




I teach a lot of "small and weak" shoooters, even...gasp...some women to shoot and when I'm done a lot of them could shoot circles around most manly men weekend warriors, and out PT them too.

They all, all, shoot a 9mm better. And so do I. And everyone I know. You just can't run a polymer .40 as fast as a polymer 9mm. But what do I know, I've just watched a couple thousand people shoot both.

I have a hard time trying to convince myself that the 0.1134 square inches frontal area (9mm), will be much different when compared with the frontal area of the .40 which is 0.1256 square inches, for a difference of 0.0122 square inches. The .45 ACP has a frontal area of 0.5674 square inches which is significantly larger than both the 9mm and the .40 S&W.

The larger, heavier bullet will be the surer killer and stopper when all things aren't equal- larger/heavier target than expected, oblique angles, intervening limbs and when limbs are all you have to shoot at.

The 165/180 grain .40 JHP is substantially better on four legged targets than the +P 38 and watered-down 357 LE loads ever were and it is just as good as the best examples of either were, against humans.

I suppose the average shooter may be able to get 1.7 more 9mm rounds off in five seconds or whatever arbitrary stopwatch figure you choose. He could probably get 2.9 more .22 LR's off than 9mm's.

Oddly that guy with the stopwatch was never around in the many shootings I studied first hand or within hours of the event. I taught a wide spectrum of 'shooter types' how to shoot for their lives during a 25 year period when the 40 S&W was at its apex as a LE round. They all learned to shoot it fast & accurately enough and their hit ratio in the field was about equal to what you see reported as the national LE 'miss' ratio.

I realize this is all against the current conventional wisdom. OK whatever, carry whatever you want. I don't care.

I don't buy into any of that.




Dave

he had quite a variety of tests in the video, and i thought it was pretty balanced.
9mm wasn't all that much better time wise.
what i found interesting was the last test of a couple layers of clothing, a roast, beef slabs, etc.
the 9mm actually penetrated further with the same type of ammo, but the 40 expanded out and stopped in what would be the heart.
He wasn't really advocating either one to the exclusion of the other, but in some tests the 40did better, same with the 9mm.
it was interesting in seeing video of all those different shooting situations.

Math check...

I just want to know where to get some of them square bullets

What you described was actually proven by the NYC Transit Police Division. They departed from the NYPD on training in that they required more frequent qualifications and made training free of charge, providing lots of range time and ammo year round. They had significantly fewer misses in real gun fights.

I'm not sure if that's still the case after they merged with the NYPD.

When the Federal Bureau of Prisons switched from revolvers to 9mm S&W's back in the mid 90's, we actually qualified quarterly...for about two years.

Scheduling and ammo costs wrecked havoc on the roster and the budget so they returned to the usual annual qualification.

Dan

And I can respect that. I will give you that the availability of good reliable 147 grain loads closed the gap some and puts the Nine on par with the 38 FBI load, a good LE/defense round for sure.

I understand why many of you have switched and it has nothing to do with wearing pink underwear or having the complete Elton John collection. I still beat around the woods frequently and favor larger bores and heavier bullets for reasons already stated.

I'm a fan of the .40.

I think it's a great round.

I just think the 9mm makes more sense for a duty gun.




Dave

The idea hatbrhere are no stopwatches in a gunfight is not only stupid, it's dangerous to parade around like some sort of catch phrase.

Is the bad guy trying to shoot you first? Then you better believe there's a stopwatch. A stopwatch that he's holding, he starts, and you don't know for sure when he's decided to "go".

Yes.

Times matter.

A lot.




Clark

I am sticking with a .45 ACP.