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Haven't used the RCC brass as of yet, don't anticipate delivery for a couple months. Brass used to date was turned by Jimi here on the 'Fire. Probably the Swiss machines, but not certain. I'm going to target 1,200-1,250 fps for starters when I get that brass in hand. Target diameter for the bullet heal is .210" but I've had some variation on that which I believe is skewing the results a bit. Casting the wee bullets is a challenge to be sure.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Digital Dan and contributing experimenters:

You all would probably enjoy reading a thread, "You may hate this one, but I love it!," started by Tony M., which is within the "S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980" forum on smith-wessonforum dot com. Some of the participants in that thread are pursuing a similar line of experimentation. I have found the SWF thread fascinating, and I have delighted in following the 24HCF thread for even longer. My respect for both groups of experimenters is immense.


I firmly believe that both groups would profit from reading each others' posts. Respectful consideration and discussion of each others' reasonings and results could eventually result in benefit to the world's shooting public.

Yes, I'm serious. No small dreams!

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I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Well, there's more trouble on the horizon. Spoke with RCC a few days back and they advise the brass is made and awaits shipping.

In the spirit of preparation I loaded up a few with the brass on hand and ventured toward a bit higher velocity.

My friend Muffin has a new to him Contender with a Bullberry match barrel and wanted to plink a little, so why not make it interesting?

Target below has the information: Two strings with .8 700X and two with 800X; targets on the right side were shot first with each. The first three groups were loaded with charges previously tested, and the last an upgrade (lower left). All bullets were lightly knurled and given a coat of NASA lube for good measure. For reasons unclear the ES numbers were a bit large, but the grouping seemed to run minute of squill.

[Linked Image]

I was disappointed that he did not inquire as to when I plan to AI the cartridge. -sniff-

Moving on and not really relevant to the topic, I pulled out my old Rem 513 without the Schuetzen accoutrements installed just to test some loads of RF ammo. Now I want you all to be gentle. I got shot in the shootin' eye with a laser day before this and my vision was a little pathetic. I shot the upper targets and Muffin shot the lowers CCI SV and Wolf MT. Just to show how much I like aperture sights, and at Muffin's suggestion, we shot the targets on the right with our glasses on, and the ones on the left without glasses. I might'a learnt something from that. laugh

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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I forgot to mention how inspiring it is when your friend uses one of your guns to out shoot ya. Never mind that I was distracted by a scorpion crawling up my leg on the last group. They tickle a bit.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
I forgot to mention how inspiring it is when your friend uses one of your guns to out shoot ya. Never mind that I was distracted by a scorpion crawling up my leg on the last group. They tickle a bit.



smile

Last edited by muffin; 02/23/19.

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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Well, there's more trouble on the horizon. Spoke with RCC a few days back and they advise the brass is made and awaits shipping.


Oooh... Looking forward to seeing the results... We do need to get together sometime soon...

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Been awhile comin' but I got to take a crack (pun intended) at topping the speed of sound today, and 2 out of three times I did. laugh

Scrolled back thru history and found the last date I did any plinking with the .22 GTC was July of 2018. It took awhile to get the brass from RCC, but I found out today after talking to the boss they are in the process of expanding operation and moving to a new facility. He also related that he had done a Facebook thing about the cartridge and had over 25K hits.

Well, one thing leads to another as they say, and I received the brass about a month ago amidst a pile of self inflicted projects. It chambered well and seemed to be up to specs, but had to wait a bit for the first try. First hurdle, only hurdle actually, the primer pockets were a little short on diameter, being .170". Spec is .175' at the case base and .1725" at the web. I tried the bigger hammer theory but wound up with three mangled primers. Plan B: I pulled out the primer pocket tools on hand and reamed to .173" full length and .175" to about 1/2 the pocket depth. Three thoughts: I love battery powered hand drills with variable speed. Now I know why I bought the tools years ago. Everything proceeded apace w/o further incident. I did talk to RCC today and mentioned that matter and have no doubt it will be addressed on future production.

Funny thing about this project is that nothing I've done in the realm of hand loading has taught me more about the finer points. I stepped into round 15 gingerly to say the least. The result of velocity increases associated with Federal primers was an eye opener on one hand, and something I took advantage of this time. Figuring a little boost from the primers and start from zero with the new brass, I set out to the range today. Decided I'd rather set up on the 50 yard butt than do all that extra walking so it didn't take long to get down to particulars.

Couple of thoughts steering my buggy on load choice. There can be little doubt the new brass has a slightly different internal volume because it is a couple thou thicker case wall. I went with Fed SPP and the max load previously tested in the previous lot of brass and used the NASA lube on 3 rounds/load.

The numbers went like this:

1.1 grains WW231; 1125, 1138, 1160 averaged 1141 fps with ES at 35, Sd 17 and the group measured .505"
.9 grains 700X; 1001, 1032, 1057 averaged 1046 fps with ES 81, Sd 41 and group of .2" (scratching my noodle and smiling at the same time)
.9 grains Red Dot; 1153, 1108, 1129 averaged 1130 with ES 45, Sd 22 and a group of .37"

Previous high velocity with the loads above, not necessarily with Federal Primers:
1.1 WW 231 - 1116 fps
.9 700X - 1007
.9 Red Dot - 1036

[Linked Image]

Primer extracted normally, and fresh primers will seat properly, meaning no case expansion due to the charge/primer. The RCC brass is quite a bit more robust than the previous lot and it is reflected in the results.

[Linked Image]

Case load density was quite high, very close to 100% with the Red Dot load, but I am quite confident that I can shoehorn in a bit more. There was no powder fouling of significance or leading.

.2" @ 50 works for me!

Dan



I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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OMG. You got my attention. Again.

I bought a spare bolt for my M2 Springfield seemingly ages ago but haven't done anything about converting it to centerfire. I would love to know how the gents at Springfield Armory converted that first Springfield .22 rimfire to Hornet configuration.


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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Been awhile comin' but I got to take a crack (pun intended) at topping the speed of sound today, and 2 out of three times I did. laugh

Scrolled back thru history and found the last date I did any plinking with the .22 GTC was July of 2018. It took awhile to get the brass from RCC, but I found out today after talking to the boss they are in the process of expanding operation and moving to a new facility. He also related that he had done a Facebook thing about the cartridge and had over 25K hits.

Well, one thing leads to another as they say, and I received the brass about a month ago amidst a pile of self inflicted projects. It chambered well and seemed to be up to specs, but had to wait a bit for the first try. First hurdle, only hurdle actually, the primer pockets were a little short on diameter, being .170". Spec is .175' at the case base and .1725" at the web. I tried the bigger hammer theory but wound up with three mangled primers. Plan B: I pulled out the primer pocket tools on hand and reamed to .173" full length and .175" to about 1/2 the pocket depth. Three thoughts: I love battery powered hand drills with variable speed. Now I know why I bought the tools years ago. Everything proceeded apace w/o further incident. I did talk to RCC today and mentioned that matter and have no doubt it will be addressed on future production.

Funny thing about this project is that nothing I've done in the realm of hand loading has taught me more about the finer points. I stepped into round 15 gingerly to say the least. The result of velocity increases associated with Federal primers was an eye opener on one hand, and something I took advantage of this time. Figuring a little boost from the primers and start from zero with the new brass, I set out to the range today. Decided I'd rather set up on the 50 yard butt than do all that extra walking so it didn't take long to get down to particulars.

Couple of thoughts steering my buggy on load choice. There can be little doubt the new brass has a slightly different internal volume because it is a couple thou thicker case wall. I went with Fed SPP and the max load previously tested in the previous lot of brass and used the NASA lube on 3 rounds/load.

The numbers went like this:

1.1 grains WW231; 1125, 1138, 1160 averaged 1141 fps with ES at 35, Sd 17 and the group measured .505"
.9 grains 700X; 1001, 1032, 1057 averaged 1046 fps with ES 81, Sd 41 and group of .2" (scratching my noodle and smiling at the same time)
.9 grains Red Dot; 1153, 1108, 1129 averaged 1130 with ES 45, Sd 22 and a group of .37"

Previous high velocity with the loads above, not necessarily with Federal Primers:
1.1 WW 231 - 1116 fps
.9 700X - 1007
.9 Red Dot - 1036

[Linked Image]

Primer extracted normally, and fresh primers will seat properly, meaning no case expansion due to the charge/primer. The RCC brass is quite a bit more robust than the previous lot and it is reflected in the results.

[Linked Image]

Case load density was quite high, very close to 100% with the Red Dot load, but I am quite confident that I can shoehorn in a bit more. There was no powder fouling of significance or leading.

.2" @ 50 works for me!

Dan


Cool beans!


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Looks like you’ve got it figgered out, DD. When is Starline or Lapua gonna start makin’ brass for it?😊


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Guess on my part, when demand presents they will tool up and go. In retrospect it's too bad this discussion didn't start around 2010.

Forgot to mention in the last that I'm fairly confident I can milk 1,200 fps out of this thing. Stay tuned.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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I think you ought to start working on a hyper-velocity version next. That might get the “big boys” off of TDC and get the ball rolling😀


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When ya gonna neck it down to .17 so's Daisy Red Ryders can be re-chambered for it? Perhaps a .12 caliber version, and call it the .12 WRRSM (Winchester Really Really Short Magnum)

Any plans for a .22 short version? You know, for the cost conscious crowd.

Last edited by gnoahhh; 05/02/19.

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A primer powered short? That would be easy if you could find round balls. We could call it .22 BBCF Capomatic?

Hyper vel? Maybe a .10 caliber in a sabot? Maybe 10 grains of copper in a ELD form? With the right powder ya might top 3,000 fps. The Creedmoor crowd is gonna hate me. Little Jimmy on the other hand..... cool


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Any news from Yankeetown?

I'm not making headway on converting a spare M2 Springfield bolt head to centerfire. I really really would like to know how Wotkyns, Whelen, et al accomplished it in 1929 when they altered M2's at the Armory for initial .22 Hornet development. A description of the conundrum would have me talking in circles and it defies my photographic abilities. I already screwed up one very expensive piece of 90 year old ordnance, I need to come up with a better game plan.

Whilst I work around that problem I'm skittering off in a different but related direction with another rifle. When I learned of the recent importation of empty primed .22LR brass again (from Armscor in the PI) I swooped in and ordered a shoebox full (literally) of the things. (Give me a break. It seemed like a good idea at the time. At least Sailor Jerry sitting on my shoulder told me it was...) At $.02 apiece + the cost of a pinch of powder + the free scrap lead, it's still in the realm of Determined Digital Dan's initial premise that kicked off this thread.

The plan is to use these cases in a breech seating venture with my Winchester-Miroku Low Wall .22LR. I have a truly ancient Ideal # 225438 mold which fortuitously throws its bullets with a .218 front bands diameter and .225 base band diameter- I'm thinking that in its pre-tapered configuration I got a leg up in making it fit the rifling as a prime candidate for a breech seating experiment. (For the uninformed but inquisitive crowd, breech seating is merely the cramming of a soft lead bullet up the spout into the rifling leade, and then inserting a charged case into the chamber behind it, and shoot. The seating is done with either a tool incorporating a plunger that is powered by leverage, or a straight pusher. The idea being to start the bullet straight into the rifling, and pre-engrave the rifling into it before the drama of the powder igniting has a chance to skew it.) Bullets to be cast tomorrow out of 9bhn alloy to be ready for the long weekend of range loafing coming up. Powder dippers being prepped to measure charges of Bullseye ranging from .7 grain to 1.1 grain. (I'm bound and determined to do this at the bench without benefit of wind sensitive scales.) I made the breech seating tool today on the lathe- a closely fitted brass plug that's a snug fit in my chamber, with a straight-in push rod. Said plug being .020 longer than a standard .22LR case to put the bullet a skinch forward of the case mouth.

A case full of FFFFg black powder is another distinct possibility, but I'd rather not get into the whole BP cleanup routine here.

It's not a new idea. Target/accuracy buffs were using this trick since before Teddy Roosevelt was President. Slow as hell to fire a ten shot group? Oh heck yes- but what, indeed, is time to a pig?

Dan- what was your solution for a tiny funnel to fill these Lilliputian cases?

Last edited by gnoahhh; 05/20/19.

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gnoahhh, interesting approach you're considering there, wish you well with it.

I use a standard funnel for charging cases that I've had for a thousand years, don't know who made it. If it's good enough for a .22 Hornet it will work for the LR case dims, but I admit to using my little pinky to get the case mouth "up there". It is a pursuit filled with minutiae....

As for bolt conversion, I don't have a clue. I have a friend with an interest in shooting and machine work who has helped with my project. He says that converting a 10/22 bolt will be easy. Will have to take his word on that...

I'm loaded for round 2 with the RCC brass, just looking for a break in the schedule to shoot it. Likely sometime this week with any luck.

DD


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Any news from Yankeetown?

I'm not making headway on converting a spare M2 Springfield bolt head to centerfire. I really really would like to know how Wotkyns, Whelen, et al accomplished it in 1929 when they altered M2's at the Armory for initial .22 Hornet development. A description of the conundrum would have me talking in circles and it defies my photographic abilities. I already screwed up one very expensive piece of 90 year old ordnance, I need to come up with a better game plan.



One very old article, maybe in a 1920's-30's American Rifleman, or maybe in an early book, said "fit a centerfire bolt" and another said "use a converted 1922M1 bolt." A centerfire bolt would have to be shortened, lugs removed, probably headspace on the safety lug, and would need a rimfire extractor. I don't know the difference between the M1 and M2 bolts.

Bruce

Last edited by bcp; 05/21/19.
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Bruce, both the M1 and M2 used two piece bolts and are outwardly similar. Internally, inside the front halves, the firing pins are totally different. In the M1 the striker is basically cylindrical with the firing pin itself offset to hit the rim of the .22 cartridge. The cavity in the bolt head in which that striker rides is centrally located and as such would be a piece of cake to convert to centerfire- weld shut the hole in the bolt face and re-drill one centrally, and reconfigure the striker/firing pin accordingly. The M2 on the other hand is a different breed of cat internally. In it the striker/firing pin is offset to hit the cartridge rim, and the cavity in the bolt head in which it rides is offset too. Therein lies the conundrum- how to fill that cavity so as to allow a new cavity be bored on center. M2 bolts abound, sort of, but aren't particularly cheap. M1 bolts are nonexistent- when they made the switch at the Armory, all M1's that were turned in got re-fitted with M2 bolts and all M1 bolts were scrapped. One may turn up- you know how that goes- but I'm not going to waste a lot of time looking for one because it's pretty fruitless.

I wouldn't even begin to try to convert an '03 bolt- it could be done I guess, but OMG the work involved would put the project right out of the "fun challenge" category into the "what the hell was I thinking, screw this I'm gonna go have a beer" category.

Sorry, fellas, to drive the topic off into the weeds a bit. Carry on.


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You aren't off topic as far as I am concerned. I took the wussy path with the Contender for preliminary exploration. My opinion at this point is with subs and hivel ammo it's field ready though not quite ready for the finish line. Final proof of concept will be a 10/22 and that will require a touch of ingenuity.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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