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Joined: Nov 2013
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,526 |
The Fall 2016 issue of Classic Arms Journal has an article by Hamilton Bowen on loading black-powder .22s, unfortunately using primed cases acquired by pulling regular .22s apart. The bullet mold he uses, and the crimping die might come in handy though, both from Old West Bullet Molds.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,797 |
Revisiting an idea tried before in different iterations and looking for thoughts. In days past there have been several straightwall .22 CF cartridges, the most recent failure being the Cooper .22 CCM. They were in circulation and competing with an abundant supply of cheap RF ammo and fell by the wayside.
We have been on the wrong side of the price/supply equation for some years now and I ponder the viability of pursuing the idea once again. Rather than trying to recreate the Cooper round I'm thinking that the target for performance should or might be the .22 LR at the standard velocity range with 40-45 grain cast or jacketed .224" bullets, something that would be suitable for the handloading crowd.
Some of the numbers I ponder:
Depending on a few variables, 3,500 - 7,000 loads from a pound of powder. Assuming $25/# we are left with about .35-.71 cents/round. Assuming $2/# for lead, the cost per bullet is 1.15 cents per round. Primers will cost about 3 cents each at current prices.
Total cost per round, excluding brass is about 4.85 cents per round. I figure brass life to be very long due to low pressures and on assumption of compatibility of die/brass dims. Lighter bullets or round balls might be driven with only a primer, thus presenting some additional cost reductionns.
Thoughts?
Don't be bashful, I can take a jab or two. To this date, I stil don't know why someone hasn't taken the FN5.7 pistol round and started producing rifles for it.
The Kaiser- "If it ain't broke, I can fix that!"
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,673
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,673 |
Rock island arms makes the 22 TCM in a handy little bolt action. The 22 TCM is very similar to the 5.7. But everything the 22 TCM can do, can be done by most any 22 centerfire if you handload. And do it way cheaper.
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,173 |
To this date, I stil don't know why someone hasn't taken the FN5.7 pistol round and started producing rifles for it.
Well, there is the P90, with up to a 16" barrel. Quite the critter to shoot. I was amazed while shooting the shorter, full-auto version, that the red-dot sight never left the target. Really fun to shoot, and I'd guess effective. Never shot anything but targets with it. Re rimfire alternatives - dang, I just buy & shoot 22 and .17 ammo. Hasn't been a problem getting it, at decent prices, for a couple of years. Made it through the worst of the shortage via a large quantity I'd built up, buying a brick here and there over the years. Guy
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Joined: Apr 2010
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 223 |
Custom 32 acp twisted for 70gr wadcutters to 90 gr pointed loaded to 1000 (or less ) fps in a T/C or repeater ( all it takes is $). Custom moulds of your choice. Cheap brass, cheap loads, as much as you want to spend on the rifle, cans, sights etc. Fun and cheap to plink with the ability to kill anything with head shots. It even has symmetry - 32 Automatic Crat Pacifier
Take a kid hunting!!! Old member name - Reloader - joined 2001
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910 |
Guy,
As I noted earlier in thread, my wife and I plan to shoot up a BUNCH of rimfire ammo today, including both Long Rifles and ,.17 HMR's. None of it broke the bank, and the only load "work up" occurred when trying different Long Rifles to see which shot most accurately. (So far I haven't ANY inaccurate .17 HMR ammo. In fact I shot one round each of three different kinds at a 100-yard target on Thursday, and they went into less than an inch.)
But you know, and I know, and most others know that making things easy isn't always the goal of rifle loonies. Instead much of our lives are spent making things complicated, apparently because for some reason we have more fun that way.
This includes Campfire threads.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889 |
Bristoe, your balls are ready for the ball, hey? What did you coat them with?
I'm thinking (odd this early in the morning) a short version of the .22 CCM would be a path if any brass was available. Admittedly, the .32 Auto Crat Pacifier has a certain, well, mebbe delete the Auto part and it's the opposite of PC on several levels, and that ain't a bad thing. I like a little bit of rim though. Hmmmm.....
Just back from putting the mic on a few things and find the following numbers:
Small pistol primer diameter - .175" Large rifle primer diameter - .209" .22 LR case diameter forward of the rim - .225" .22 LR rim diameter - .273"
Yeah, it needs a rimmed case. If a fella rolls with the LRP/LPP you might get some snappy velocity with nothing more in the case, especially with round balls. Helluva tool for introducing youngsters into the world of shooting/reloading etc.
It gives a bit of a sense of tedium unless one owns a Dillon or other high volume production equipment. On top of that, went out yesterday and cast up a batch of 200 Lyman 225438 bullets, put the gas checks on (they are destined for the Hornet) and sized the little buggers. Didn't know that fingers keep growing like ears and noses. Thinking there is one helluva marketing niche here for Hornady and the swagged lead bullets they sell. That would be for the well off amongst us, otherwise we can cast and move on.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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Mule Deer, sometimes you are remarkably perceptive.
-laffin'-
Breakin' the bank is secondary to occupying time and having certainty of availability. And world class precision. It isn't hard to equal or beat OTC rimfire ammo accuracy with handloads.
We get us another pinfire liberal in the Oval Office and this last run on ammo will look like a Sunday social.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 |
Bristoe, your balls are ready for the ball, hey? What did you coat them with? I just put a drop of liquid alox on the buckshot after they were loaded into the case.
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Posts: 22,988
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,988 |
Yet another factor is that with Trump's election, rimfire ammo is becoming abundant and cheaper. So it depends on whether dinking around with low-powered handloads is worth it, as opposed to just buying a bunch of rimfires.
Personally, my wife and I are going out this weekend to shoot up a bunch of rimfire ammo at ground squirrels, and are not really worried about how to replace it. I guess I march to a different beat because I started playing with rimfire replacement loads 4 decades ago and will continue to shoot reduced Hornet loads as a preference over full tilt loads, even if .22RF prices fell to 1966 levels. Don't get me wrong- this in addition to the rf ammo I love to shoot also.
Last edited by gnoahhh; 05/06/17.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,145 |
True, and having traveled that path with mediocre results it does not inspire. Thinking load density is key to success and a straight wall case has some advantage. I suggest, based on experience, this endeavor would favor cast bullets for the most part. Pounding a stuck jacketed bullet from a Hornet barrel is not a lot of fun. They tend to start doing that around 1100 fps in a Ruger #1. I've had jacketed bullets stuck in the barrel of my Savage .22 H-P, and instead of pounding them out, I took a primed casing with a mild charge of a suitable powder (sans bullet), chambered it being careful to point the rifle slightly upward to prevent the powder from spilling out but not pointing skyward and then pulled the trigger. Worked like a charm. It may or may not have been real good on the throat, but probably better than the damage to the rifling that would occur from pounding on a rod. As for your original Q, I haven't done much playing around with this theory, but 5 grains of unique and a .228 cast bullet makes a great .22 H-P squib load. I'd imagine any other .224 centerfire and .225 or .226 cast bullet would be fine with 4-5 grains of unique. With .223 brass littered at every gun range, I doubt you'll ever run out of free brass if you went that route.
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
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Bristoe, your balls are ready for the ball, hey? What did you coat them with? I just put a drop of liquid alox on the buckshot after they were loaded into the case. Don't let this go to your head, but the picture makes it look like you have brass balls.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889
Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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Tinman, dat's risky bidness. Might be I'll try that next time though. It was 20 years back when I was poundin' the barrel.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,573
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,573 |
Oh, for those long ago prices. I remember in 1957 the local harddware store was having their Washington's birthday sale(remember those) Winchester .22 Shorts at 25cents (regular price) but of one cent more, a second box.
During the mid 70s Shotgun News had someone listing 10,000 .22 Shorts for $100.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,145 |
Tinman, dat's risky bidness. Might be I'll try that next time though. It was 20 years back when I was poundin' the barrel. Ya, not knowing what to expect, I put on some safety glasses, turned my head and fired from the hip...but it just went "pop" real quietly like the other squib loads (with the same 5 grains of unique charge and same bullet that was stuck for that matter) and all was well. Same everything as the stuck load...just more room for the gas to expand in the chamber and a portion of the barrel, so the pressure was much lower. I certainly wouldn't try that technique with a full charge of a regular powder, but it got that stuck bullet out easy peasy.
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,889 |
Off on another adventure a short while ago at the load bench and wound up doing some rearranging of misc. stuff. Came across a long forgotten bag of stuff that had two cartridges, a .25 ACP and .32 Short, a Colt cartridge if memory serves. Dang it....I might get in trouble yet.... Didn't know it but that little ACP has a bit of rim, about .020" over belt diameter.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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So does the 32ACP. That's why you can shoot them in your 32 S&W Long handgun.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
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I am speaking out of ignorance here, but I'm wondering if this idea might have some use for me in regard to squirrel hunting. I've got a dandy Ruger American Predator in .223. I have an endless supply of .223 Rem brass. I've got 8 lbs of Universal Clays, but I could probably get a pound of something else for the task if needed.
What would be a good load for a 40 grain bullet driven at 22 lr or 22 Mag velocities?
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,526 |
Interesting stuff here; good to know perhaps for the next supply calamity, and fun to play around with. Also useful for those of us with nice rifles that don't get used much otherwise and could be put to use for small game. Honestly though, anyone that gets caught short again only has himself to blame.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,573 |
I am speaking out of ignorance here, but I'm wondering if this idea might have some use for me in regard to squirrel hunting. I've got a dandy Ruger American Predator in .223. I have an endless supply of .223 Rem brass. I've got 8 lbs of Universal Clays, but I could probably get a pound of something else for the task if needed.
What would be a good load for a 40 grain bullet driven at 22 lr or 22 Mag velocities?
Down here in the flatlands only rimfires are allowed for squirrels. And shotguns of course. Check your local game regs.
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