Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

Gadfly, I have pondered the .22 CCM and it has merit on several levels. Point taken about the commercial availability of cast .22 bullets, it is a thin set. I'm thinking I could take the marketing rep for Hornady out, get him or her drunk and laid (in either order) and they could buy a new set of dies for their swaging machine....win/win in my opinion. Add a couple cents to the cost of bullets, but I'd tolerate it.

Tex, good luck with the Rook...and I'm jealous.

Swaged .224 bullets would be awesome. Apparently casting .224's is a bitch? Another advantage I see for a shortened CCM is the ability to use a carbide sizer. I bet I'm not the only one that hates lubing cases.

Speaking as a caster who regularly casts .22 bullets and doesn't feel handicapped doing so (it's not a bitch, in fact I think it's easier but that's me), I would welcome a cheap source of commercially swaged soft bullets. By cheap I mean cheap enough to make me feel comfortable spending money on them to abrogate the time/labor in casting them myself. I'm sitting on enough lead to sustain my shooting for the rest of my days, all of which cost me little or nothing, but what I'm valuing more and more as I get older is time.

If I were King (don't laugh, it could happen) I would decree that such .22 bullets be made available to everyone at low cost, along with Everlasting cases with powder capacity approximating .22LR brass. (An Everlasting case is/was a heavy duty case that didn't expand much, if any, under pressure of low-vel target loads, not requiring a trip through a sizing die, with a ledge built into the case below the mouth upon which the heel of the bullet rests when thumb seated.) Such a case would be a lot more substantial than a .22LR case- undoubtedly longer and bigger in diameter (and as such encompassing enough girth to support a primer, perhaps a new primer smaller than the current .175 diameter primers), but with a small internal volume sufficient to hold a pinch of Bullseye powder. I would issue an edict that gun chambers be cut to minimum dimensions to further guarantee that these Everlasting cases last forever. In the Royal Chambers we would use these guns with .22 roundballs and just the primer for propulsion, to shoot targets, Royal Rats, and serfs who were slow on their feet. Go ahead- elect me king. You're welcome.

An Everlasting case requires no loading tools other than a means to de- and re-cap, and a dipper with which to dispense powder into the case, and a tiny funnel. This isn't a new idea, they were extensively used by centerfire target shooters a century ago. Everything needed for a day of shooting contained in a cigar box. (Ten year old boy to perform the grunt work while you shoot, optional.)

Smilin' here, very well put!

.224" cast bullets. Even a caveman can do it....



King of the not so original idea,

DD

At least 95% of what you two are trying to accomplish can be done with a good PCP airgun. Good ones are nearly silent, available in (at least) .177, .22, .25, .30, .357, and .45 calibers and as accurate as any human can hold, in field positions certainly. My jury is still out on whether they're use on large game is "sporting" or not, but they're absolutely capable of taking stuff at least as big as turkeys cleanly. The better guns are beautifully engineered and will last a lifetime, at least.

On the down side, they're butt-ugly, to my eyes anyway, often heavy and unwieldy, and don't generate the soul-satisfying smoke and fire of firearms. They also lack the rich history of regular firearms, although I'm sure there's a bit of that as well, just not generally known.

None of this is meant to discourage the fun you guys are having, only to point out an option for those who want to send lead down range and are looking for options. Airguns can do that for them and only require the ability to write a check.

Pappy,

Some handloaders prefer making the process complicated, while at the same time talking out of the other side of their mouth about making things simpler.

I have a not-very-expensive .22 caliber break-action air-rifle that groups as well as my .22 Hornet cast-bullet handloads, which is to say pretty damn well. The last batch of "ammo" I bought for it cost less than $15 for 500, ready to shoot. But obviously it's not a repeater, and doesn't need powder or a primer, so is too simple.

I also already described how my cast .22 bullets are most accurate in my Hornet right out of the mold, not sized or gas-checked. All they require is rolling around in a little Lee Alox. They seat perfectly in fired, UNSIZED Hornet brass, and get around 1100 fps with 2 grains of Red Dot, and pressures are low enough the cases are essentially everlasting. With primer and powder they're about as cheap as the air-gun pellets. But apparently they're either too simple or too complicated, depending on the individual handloader's perspective.

Last night I came up with another idea that might solve the "problem" of casting bullets. Hopefully know more later today, after a trip to the local big city, a metropolis of 25,000.

I've read the article where you first told that story about a dozen times, and have a copy in the binder where I keep my Hornet data.

Honestly, for the number I need for the field, it's more cost-effective, and way more time-effective for me to use sale bullets for my reduced Hornet loads than to invest $100 or so in a mold and handles, not to mention scrounging or buying lead. I never ran short of .22s, and am well prepared for any future panics. I fully understand the blessings of tinkering, but sometimes I just want to shoot without a lot of fuss. Ain't getting any younger!

My airgun is an RWS 54 recoiless springer. I scoped it originally, but now it wears a circa 1968 Redfield receiver sight that fits the dovetail. I keep it in my basement and take a few offhand shots at a .22 trap placed at 10 yards when I go down there for other stuff (and remember the right pair of glasses!). Offhand, I shoot as well with the peep as I could with the scope.

Waiting eagerly to hear the results of your Big-City excursion.

Oh dear.............I'm remembering a plaque behind the desk of Kelly Johnson who founded the Lockheed Skunk Works and designed a couple of aircraft which are legend. It said, "SIMPLICATE!"

John, I flubbed up at the start and suggested I'd not shot cast from the Hornet, and corrected myself later. Lyman 225438's of #2 alloy for fireforming a K-Hornet. My 50 yard groups just reviewed are not unlike your report, though they were many shots dedicated to forming, not a measure of precision. 30 or so in 2" groups and though I don't consider that a test, it is a ballpark reference. I have one string of 5 on a target that measures just sub inch so I'd call that in line with your findings. While useful it does not vary that much from previous experience with other cartridges, nor rise to the level of utility and precision I have in mind. As example, from my T/C Contender, .22 CB shorts, the hog whacker got a check on zero after a through barrel cleaning.



It is only in recent weeks that I've seen CCI CB Shorts available in the marketplace, this after several years of zero availability. Most other styles of short ammo were likewise not available.

My Hornet is a Model 54 that had the chamber recut by Mr. Kilbourn. It is a beaut, but not what I'd think of as a work-a-day .22 rifle for pests, plinking and knock-around activities. Nor were other Hornets I've owned in times past.

Apologies tendered if this presents as trying to make a simple solution complicated, that is not my intent. It is merely a search for an alternative that is compatible with existing platforms and perhaps useful to those many shooters out there that survived the .22 RF shortage and associated higher costs of ammo then and now. I did not have this objective in mind when the discussion began, and recognize one can, to some degree, modify and/or download other cartridges with some success. That implies one off production and custom tools. I'm looking at complimentary utility and flexibility in a single production package at this point. Something the industry might find useful from a marketing perspective?

After my second cup of Joe today I went out to the load bench and did something new. Pulled out the 'stuff' and set about finding out for myself how the basic capacities and relevant dims compare for the LR and .25 ACP cases. Measured some capacities as well, at least to the best of my ability to contrive. I do not claim high statistical accuracy here, just ballpark numbers.

Case Capacity, fired CCI LR SV brass defined at 100% load density w/o charge compression

WW231 - 3.1 grains
Bullseye- 2.8 grains
Lil Gun - 3.9 grains

It was quite a bit more capacity than I anticipated. I assume the loads for factory production are in the 1 grain range but have not pulled bullets to weigh the charge(s). So, in some cases we get relatively small velocity spreads with low density of charge. That tweaks my curiosity a bit.

The .25 ACP and .22 LR case are within a very few thou of the same length. I suspect the internal volume with seated bullet is similar. Lyman 49 suggested loads for a 50 gr. bullet in the ACP are 1.0-1.4 grains for both WW231 and Bullseye, with max load velocity 750 fps +/- 2 fps

Anyway, that's my drivel this AM before a full dose of coffee. I heard a rumor when I was young that Orville and Wilbur thought building roads was a tedious exercise and did not get to the point of expeditious travel. Their thoughts had a profound impact on my life.

My choices are down to choosing .257 or .316 for groove dia,.......and will be taking everything that gnoahhh's fresh post on everlasting case design to heart.
.....hell, was pretty much there myself , as regarded small primer fitted cases.

GTC

Dan,

So you want a rimfire-power rifle that's really cheap to reload and provides close to benchrest accuracy, but the bullets have to be really cheap so you can match cheap .22 Long Rifle prices. Oh, and it can't be an airgun, because that would be too...what?

Sounds like you really want an expensive rifle project that will last until the end of your days, in order to produce reloads that MIGHT cost less than .22 rimfire ammo.

Dan,

I know not everyone has access to lead inexpensively, but I have a couple thousand pounds mixed between pure, WW and linotype. To date the most I've paid for any of it has been 10 cents a pound, which is what I paid for the linotype. Market price on lead was 11 cents that day (20+ years ago) and he rounded it down to 10s cent and had 984 pounds. Here's a break down based on what my components cost me, realizing the lead is almost cost free.

2.5 grains of Trail Boss comes to .008 (five pound container @ $116)
90 grain bullet @ 10 cents a pound = .001 - between the powder and the bullet we can round up to 1 cent
New Starline brass bought in a batch of 500 comes to 2 cents based on 10 loadings.
If one catches the S&B primers on sale at Cabelas, they can be had for 2 cents each, otherwise figure 4 cents.
My 32-20 load is costing between 5 and 7 cents a round.
22 LR locally is running between 7-10 cents a round.

I know the cheap lead skews the results but if a guy is diligent deals can be found on lead.

Mart

Sometimes I get the impression that some people are just, well, hostile, to small-game centerfire rifles and the efforts of some shooters to get/devise one.

"Center-fire rifles are for DEER, damn it. There's .22 LR and airguns for everything else. And quit trying to prove otherwise!"

Edited to spare all from a 12 chapter reply.

John, I'm nothing special in the shooting world, I have had varied experience just like everyone else here. I've watched the industry do some crazy things in the sense of marketing and product introduction, many of which have failed in short order. I don't know my idea is all that nifty, but I see a window of opportunity which would, in my opinion, be quite popular.

I'm way past the point of equating velocity and FPE to success in the shooting world. Out west you folks see for miles and miles, down here it's measured in feet in the swamps, sometimes yards but not all that often. Quiet precision is a major advantage. I learned that one morning as I shot 5 hogs with the Contender without taking a step. A 200# boar, 175# sow and three of her litter running about 30# each. #4 went 'wee-wee-wee' all the way home. The gun can shoot CF or RF, I like options when the supplies grow scarce.

I imagine that others would rejoice if simple conversions were available, if for no other reason that there are a lot of loonies out there and EVERY ONE of them has a .22 RF gun.

Have owned and loaded for too many rifles chambered for other small centerfires, including the .25-20 and .32-20, to be "hostile" to small centerfires that aren't .22's. I'm just wondering why spend what will probably be considerable money just to be able to handload cheaply--and the rifle probably will have to be pretty expensive in order to shoot super-accurately. Then there's the expense of a wildcat, which I know all too well.

But if I was bound and determined to create such a cartridge, I'd probably cut off the .22 Hornet case enough for minimal case capacity with .25-caliber bullets. None of my several references on wildcat rounds list such a creature, but it's probably been done already.

It would then be possible to get a Hornet rifle rebored to .25, whether for airgun pellets or .257 cast bullets. Both cases and rifles are pretty common, and reboring would be reasonably inexpensive.

Trailblazing always costs a lot, and not just in money.

I would be happy to see something like what Dan is proposing as something different, particularly if loading can be done at the shooting range without the need for a press and dies. Many a pleasant day I have spent at the range with but a single cartridge case, can of powder, primers (and the means to de- and re-cap), measure, and a box of cast bullets- be it with a single shot employing breech seating or a bolt gun with a carefully prepared cartridge case and carefully sized bullets. For me, carrying that to the next step would be with tiny cases and .22 bullets.

My rimfire shooting consists mostly of experimenting with various heavy(ish) rifles and paper targets. Tin cans, pebbles, and pine cones are pretty safe from me. I don't waste (much) ammo on plinking and a serious system the likes of what Dan is proposing is right down my alley. The bulk of the rimfire ammo I shoot runs well over $10/box, and the thought of cutting that cost in half (eminently do-able) is appealing- not to mention combining it with my other passions which include bullet casting and reloading.

Besides, I get bored easily and the thought of something new that's also practical excites me.

Dan,

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! How many other shooters do you know who'd be interested in such a conversion?

By the way, I don't hunt only in the wide-open West, and even there's plenty of use for quiet precision.

Well, hmmmm, all of them. Yankeetown is a curious place. There are none here in the community unarmed, and most of the gents are collectors. They are all handloaders. The mayor packs a heater. She is a very sweet gal. There's a little petite old gal that serves on the town council who might weigh 90# dripping wet. Hunts deer every year in Maine. With a Sux 700 .30-06.

Your question is valid, but I'm the wrong person to ask. We have more military arms here than Ft. Benning. The town next door is a bit younger in population and we have two gun stores. Then right there in the middle is Crackertown.

Hold my beer!

So are you thinking of a bolt-action rimfire with another centerfire bolt? Or perhaps a Contender carbine, so you can just flip the hammer face?

Am sure you're aware the Cooper .22 CCM didn't take over the shooting world, even with all the loonies around.

John, I'm old enough to never be 100% certain of anything.

The .22 CCM is, in my opinion, a perfect illustration of ill conceived marketing strategy. I thought as much when it was introduced and apparently the Gods agreed. It goes to the point of what I have suggested here, but on a level where competition is fierce. That population starts on the low end with the .22 WMR and wanders up to the .222 Rem maybe. My emotional reflex when I first saw it was "I already got a Hornet, and can cover a broader range of performance." I note as well the CCM was in the market well before the recent debacle with RF ammo transpired.

If inclined, take another look at the info related to the .221 Askins. My read on that was the ammo matched .22 LR dims, functioned thru an existing platform (Woodsman?) and required they trim rim diameter on the brass and modify the bolt. Very straightforward proposition for a qualified 'smith. If you have a spare bolt in original condition and add that to the travel box, you have the option of CF or RF shooting with the same arm. There are a great many rimfire guns out there of varied action designs that have easily removed bolts. The bolt actions obviously, a number of autos, leverguns and then there is the Contender cross dressing hammer selector. My own gets exercised with some frequency. Such thoughts evolved in the course of this discussion, but were not on the table at outset.

I guess and speculate, and know a few things I rely upon in the decisions made daily. Some of my crutches have my steering wheel.

I can load ammo at my convenience
I can and do load ammo for my rifles that exceed the performance of factory production ammo insofar as precision is relevant. Seriously guilty of loading jacketed bullets too.
I can and do make so good bullets from day to day, cast and swagged. They have in the past perforated the X-ring at 200 yards.
I am not alone or unique in regards to the preceeding.
It is frustrating to see the "Not in stock" banner whilst ammo shopping

What I'd like to see develop is an alternative that provides redundancy and the ability to rise above the issues recently experienced by the shooting public. There be a reason that commercial aircraft have more than one engine. At present I see the idea as potentially very well received and a good marketing option. It won't cause a lot of top tier engineering, nor will the package be expensive on the front end.

By the way, I've seen some of your close cover out west and know you don't spend your days wandering in the open deserts. It is....God's country. We have places down here were you can see 200, 300, or even out to 500 yards sometimes. They are called golf courses.

Finally, I attacked my stash of 225438 bullets and gas checks this morning. Was dismayed to find that when that bullet was designed and the gas check geometry settled, they didn't have enough vision to realize that with very minor change in dimension the gas check shank diameter would have been a slam dunk for mating with .22 RF brass as a heeled bullet. Dang it....mics at .208" as I recall. It's close though...recalling the case wall of .22 brass being .010". I can accept a heeled bullet and the CCM (maybe) or Velodog case could serve as prototype stock.

You should see me go after 3 cups of coffee...

Dan